2.6l engine missing

[giorgio]

At the end of about an 80 mile trip yesterday my engine started missing. It was a highway trip about 55 mph in Roverdrive.

It seems that the number four cylinder is not firing. It is getting spark, and I swapped the plugs in #3 & #4, and it made no difference.

This is getting a bit over my head now, stuck valve, bad rings, I don't know much about these things.

This is in my 1968 109, which is in very good original condition, and appears to be the only NADA Land Rover shipped to Searle for a Carawagon Continental conversion.

Money is an object, and I have no idea who I might get to work on it. Of the two mechanics that I consider to be friends, I really have to twist their arms to work on it, and that was for much more minor work.

I hate to consider an engine swap in such a unique and original vehicle.

I am open to suggestions, perhaps even including finding a new home for it.

[Linus Tremaine]

Burnt valve

The common failure in these engines is a burnt exhaust valve. usually, this is due to lack of maintenance (adjusting the valves per maint. schedule) or that and a combination of running the engine lean and therefore too hot.

The only way to tell exatcly what has happen is by removing the head. You can get a good idea by doing a wet and dry compression test on that cylinder. This involves a compression gauge and testing it as is and then again with oil in the cylinder. If the reading changes with oil in the cylinder it may be piston/ring related whereas if it is the same regardless of the oil, it is a valve problem.

If you have a valve problem, it will hopefully be just that. Replace valve, lap into seat, assemble, drive away. If it is very severe, it may have damaged the valve seat as well as the valve. Land rover manual suggests levering out the seat and drifting in a new one. This is a risky procedure in that it involves hammering on something in the engine block. If you make a mistake, your block has to be removed and taken apart and a new seat must be installed by a machinist. Sadly, the IOE design makes it hard to have exhaust valve work done since the whole engine has to be given to the machinist rather than just the head, which is much easier to take out.

Alternatively, if the seat is damaged, but not all that badly, you may be able to find a mechanic with a valve seat grinding tool. He can (hopefully) come to your location and regrind the bad seat while the engine is still in the truck. I was fortunate enough to know someone with this tool and had my seats touched up.

If you do this, is has been suggested that you will have to run lead substitute as the current theory is that valve grinding will remove any left over lead deposits in the valve metal that have been lubricating your valves since the leaded gas days. I dont know if I believe this or not, but i run lead substitute now anyway as an added protection.


On the subject of the valve, if it is badly damaged you will need a new one. I do not know of anywhere in the US that stocks these valves, you will need to order one from one of the rover sedan engine part suppliers in the UK such as JR wadhams or RPS in london. IIRC they run around 50 dollars each.

Their part# is 512140.


No matter what, you may be in for a major bit of work on your engine. You will need to read the repair manual a few times, look at all the pictures and write ups by others who have done this and then just do it. I was afraid of it at first but its not that bad at all. It will probably take you a while. And, since the head is coming off, you will want to have it checked out, especially the rocker shaft as they are known to wear badly. You are going to have to come up with the parts on your own as no machinist will have any idea where to get them.

Also, you may want to talk to the machinist about changing your head to accept modern valve guide seals or even, as someone has done, converting to different valves. Try to find a machinist who is creative and known to be very top notch.

Here are some details about someone elses valve conversion:

Intake valves:
Rover valves but machined to suit new keepers
Toyota retainers #13741-25011
Toyota keepers #90913-03005
TRW #VS-935 (Chevy 350) springs
Perfect Circle #VS-19 stem seals
Perfect Circle #VST-1610 cutter
TRW #G697 guides

Exhaust valves:
TRW #SX-2401 (Chevy Corvair) valves
TRW #RC-96B rotators (don't use included springs)
TRW #VS-829 (Dodge Truck) springs
International Harvester #84482-R1 valve rotators
TRW #G823 guides

This, in my opinion, would be a nice conversion in that it would eliminate some of the common weak items in this engine. It is, however, very invasive and only truly expert machinists should tackle something like this. I suggest that you look at this as a last ditch effort to save your engine if original parts cannot be found. If properly cared for, your engine in stock configuration will run just fine for many more years.

An alternate to all of this: There are a few NADA engines on the market right now that are said to be very low mile engines in running condition. You can always buy one of those to install in your truck. I think it would be much easier to just fix yours though. My repair cost me about 1000.00. This included parts and about 5 hours machine shop time. I did all the engine work on my own (aside from assembling the head and rocker shaft). I didnt have any burnt valves, only a head gasket leak.


You can read over the land rover six pot forums:

http://www.landrover6pot.org/sixpotforum/index.php?board=6.0

to get some information on how to work on the head and valves. There are a few write ups there about others with the same problem.

Good luck and dont give up on it without a fight!

[giorgio]

Thanks for the quick reply. The motor seems to be running way too rich to me, and I recently (March, less than 500 miles ago) had the head gasket replaced and the valves adjusted, but that does not prove anything, I guess.

This is way over my skill level, but great information to have to pass along to a mechanic, if I can find one. I have made the first call to someone who might be able to get me hooked up with a mechanic who might work on it.

Until then, I guess its into the barn for a while.

Thanks again!

Giorgio

[Linus Tremaine]

dont forget

A recent head gasket replacement would not have had any affect on the conditoin of the valves unless someone particularly checked them out. As for the valve adjustment, we are talking about over long term. Its good that you cared enought to do it though. Some people treat these like 2.25s and just dont maintain them at all!



Dont forget thought that I could be comletely wrong. I think you should do a compression test before you take any other action, including shacking it up in the barn.


Edit: if you had a head gasket done within the last five hundred miles... did you re-torque the head yet? This is something you should do. If that was not done, it could be (though its unlikely) that your head gasket has burnt out. Is there any water in your oil or oil in your water? Again, compression check all cylinders, or at least 3, 4 and 5 so that you may be able to tell if there is leaking between cylinders. If it was anything like mine, you may be able to hear it as well. Run the engine and listen to see if any putt putt sound is escaping near cylinder 4. Mine was leaking compressed air out of the front of the head. It was quite audible.

[giorgio]

Linus,

Thanks again for your reply. Today I am just worn out, and admittedly a little "down". I have too many irons in the fire at the present time. The barn is a place were I go frequently, like where the tractor is, and a bunch of other things, so it's not like in exile where I could conveniently forget about it.

I am trying to juggle getting the garden in, with selling at the farmers market for the first time this year, with my day job, and other routine chores.

I have two Land Rovers, a 1975 Dodge Motorhome, two vintage Mercedes vehicles, and every now and then it just swarms on you. Having just gotten the Series IIA roadworthy again in March, I was not mentally prepared for this, quite frankly.

I do really appreciate your help, and advice, and I am sure that tomorrow or in a day or two I will be ready to tackle it again.

I will check for the water in the oil, or visa versa soon, plus re-torqueing the head. It was running like a top, and I was keeping the speed down. I had driven it a fair amount lately, on both short and longer trips.

Again, thank you very much for you help and advise!

George

[jp-]

Thanks for the quick reply. The motor seems to be running way too rich to me, and I recently (March, less than 500 miles ago) had the head gasket replaced and the valves adjusted, but that does not prove anything, I guess.

This is way over my skill level, but great information to have to pass along to a mechanic, if I can find one. I have made the first call to someone who might be able to get me hooked up with a mechanic who might work on it.

Until then, I guess its into the barn for a while.

Thanks again!

Giorgio

Where in Arkansas are you? I am in Olive Branch, MS and could possibly work on it. I rebuilt my own NADA a few years ago. There's not that much to it really.

From your post it sounds like an ignition problem, if not a valve. Did you check for spark? Also, what color were the plugs?

The SU is a very good carb, but you need to keep it clean and full of dash pot oil. Running rich could also be a sign of a dirty air cleaner. Have you checked that?

[Donnie]

Before taking the head off, check for a tight valve on your suspect cyl.
someone else did suggest a comp. test.........

[giorgio]

I did check for spark, and spark was good. The number four plug was pretty black, the other two that I checked were a light brownish gray. I swapped out the suspect plug with another plug and there was no change.

But on another note, I have been in touch with a mechanic who is more than willing to work on it, and close by, (Near me in the middle of nowhere) Vince Russo of Vince's Vintage Vehicles.

I am going to trailer it over to him Friday and he is going to look at it for me. That will be a much better next step for me, rather than me trying to do this myself. My shop would have to be a dirt floor barn, and my time and experience beyond minor tune ups, installing a Roverdrive, bleeding brakes, etc., is very limited.

The fact that he is more than willing to work on it is a good step in the right direction, it seems to me.

Linus, I will be bringing along all of the valuable information you gave me about parts interchanging. He was making the same point, and I told him that you had already shared some of that information with me.

I will keep y'all posted on progress, or lack thereof.

Giorgio

[giorgio]

Well, the mechanic called today. They checked the compression, and it was low in both #3 & #4. They pulled the engine, and the head gasket was blown again, this time between those two cylinders. Remember it was just changed a few miles ago, definitely below 500 miles, I would guess more like 320 miles. (By another shop, but a "Rover/Mercedes/BMW" independent.)

They are still investigating the problem. Cylinders were slightly scored, but not badly.

The head was at a machine shop. I did not talk to the mechanic directly myself, (when he called I was out) but it sounded as if he and others were a little confused by the 2.6L engine. I told him that it was a 1968, Series IIA, 109 NADA 2.6L and watched him write that information down, but someone, somewhere is not finding the correct information. He asked if it was an original engine to the vehicle.

I still think that this may work out, just wanted to update the folks who gave me advice about the problem.

Further updates forthcoming.

Thanks to all!

Giorgio

[Linus Tremaine]

tell him

He might have better luck finding parts (if that is what he is trying to do) by looking for parts for the rover p4 110 sedan with suffix B weslake head on it.

[giorgio]

Linus,

Thank you, I will tell him that!

Giorgio

[Linus Tremaine]

well?

Whats up with your truck? Just checking up on ya!

[giorgio]

I hate to say that I do not really know. The mechanic, who was a casual acquaintance of mine talked a good story at the beginning. I took him the truck, and I guess that he pulled the motor and sent it to a machine shop in a nearby town.

It needs one or two valves, but the bottom end looks good. They cannot find the valves. I reminded him (on a telephone call) that I had enclosed your "post" to me in the paperwork that I delivered to him with the truck. While we were on the phone, he found the post, and the related information on parts that were interchangable.

The fact that the parts were available in England may have been a bit of a stretch for the good old boys in Arkansas, so I found the links and called and e-mailed the mechanic. He was then going to "forward" the information to the guy at the machine shop.

Now the mechanic does drive a beautifully restored 1957 Rolls Royce, so one would think that he must surely have some good experience working on older vehicles, so I am just trying to wait and see at this point. http://www.vincesvintage.net/aboutus.html

Thanks for checking in with me.

Giorgio

[giorgio]

Well, I called the mechanic today just to check on things, and the engine is rebuilt (top end only I presume, as they had already reported that the bottom end looked to be in fine condition) and ready to be picked up and re-installed. Machine shop bill +/- $700. Mechanic also volunteered that they had found and fixed all the leaks in the brake system. (I like this attribute in a mechanic) I could not find them, and it was a very slow leak, but I did check the brake fluid with regularity.

It should be ready for me to pick up next week.

I should be "Rovering" again soon.

Giorgio

[Linus Tremaine]

good news!

See if you can find out where they get parts. that would be a good resource for you.

(and me!)