Brake problem in my '67 IIA 109 6 cyl

[AKRover]

Ok, here is the rundown. I recently got this 109 after it had been sitting a while. The brake petal was mushy (I had to pump the break about three times to get brakes).

The master cyl was empty. I filled it and bled the brakes three individual times. The result of each bleeding was again three pumps then good brakes. I was not losing any amount of fluid so I jacked up the back and then front, adjusting each brake properly.

I also pulled off the tire and drum. All appeared good except the front passenger side. There was fluid in the drum and along the brake components (which I assumed is brake fluid). I think I discovered a leak and the problem with my mushy brakes.

I know I need to rebuild this and am thinking this Rovers North product is the one I need to repair it: http://www.roversnorth.com/store/pc-2211-109-rebuild-kit-frt-26l-brk-series-iia-iii.aspx

Am I on the right track?

[adkrover]

Don't know about the kit but you may need to also replace the rubber lines on all four corners. Old lines can buldge a bit and give you a soft pedal. If they are flexing and buldging then they are likely to burst in an extreme brake situation.

[LaneRover]

I would recommend getting new wheel cylinders if you don't want to be doing this job again soon.

At least check for corrosion in the wheel cylinder and get rid of that if you go with the rebuild kit.

Brent

[Tim Smith]

I would recommend getting new wheel cylinders if you don't want to be doing this job again soon.

At least check for corrosion in the wheel cylinder and get rid of that if you go with the rebuild kit.

Brent

2X.

If nothing else, try to crack the bleed screws on your wheel cylinders before ordering this kit. I got the kit and then found out the bleed screws were rusted/jammed closed. Couldn't easy-out them and ended up getting new wheel cylinders any way.

In the end, I'm happier about switching out the cylinders than I would have been about just rebuilding them.

Cheers!

PS: Switched out all 4 wheel cylinders and the breakes are 100% better than before. This and I didn't think the brakes were bad to begin with.

[carl k]

I understand that 109's are problematic to bleed because the CB style master cylinder in a 109 sits at an angle and traps air. The Rover repair manual even suggests jacking up the vehicle or parking on an incline when bleeding the CB style brakes.

Carl K.

[AKRover]

I understand that 109's are problematic to bleed because the CB style master cylinder in a 109 sits at an angle and traps air. The Rover repair manual even suggests jacking up the vehicle or parking on an incline when bleeding the CB style brakes.

Carl K.

Thanks, I've heard that before too. Regardless I have a brake fluid leak in that one brake, but when I bleed them next, I'll have to find an incline to bleed them on.

Another suggestion I received was replacing the wheel cylinder. It was explained to me that this problem might be a result a bad wheel cylinder, and if possible, replace the entire cylinder instead of attempting to rebuild it. Some of the posts above suggest this move as well.

Depending on the price, either I swap out the bad one, or just order four and swap out all the cylinders. What the hell, it's only money.

[daveb]

If nothing else, try to crack the bleed screws on your wheel cylinders before ordering this kit. I got the kit and then found out the bleed screws were rusted/jammed closed.

I've been known to gut the rubber out of a cylinder and then put some heat from the MAPP torch on those pesky bleed screws. That and some PB Blaster will usually free em right up. If not, you know you are going to replace it anyway, so...

Also never tried this but I bet in an "emergency" you could achieve a quesi-bleed by cracking the line a bit. Though if the bleeder's sieze then the line ain't likely to budge either...

[Tim Smith]

Murphy's law

...Though if the bleeder's sieze then the line ain't likely to budge either...

Yup, that was exactly the progression I experienced. Order the rebuild kit, replaced the leaky side (no problems), move to the good side, snap the bleeder, wait for the new cylinders to arrive, round off the brake pipe (same cylinder), make another order for pipes and wait for that to arrive. I think it was about a week and a half before I actually finished this little job.

Honestly, some times it's easier to just go out and get the whole kit and caboodle in one go and just replace everyting... More expensive, but it's a bit easier sometimes.

It turned out that the old cylinder on this wheel was the aluminum brand. I think the reaction between the steel lines/bleeder against the aluminum cylinder was the problem. Who knows. Maybe the previous owner put that cylinder together after eating his weaties...

[Donnie]

I understand that 109's are problematic to bleed because the CB style master cylinder in a 109 sits at an angle and traps air. The Rover repair manual even suggests jacking up the vehicle or parking on an incline when bleeding the CB style brakes.

Carl K.

yea, some are a bit tricky to bleed, especially when you have dual cyls. on each wheel and the bleeder screw is on the LOWER one. real PITA........donnie

[chrismccarthy]

109 brakes

i've heard a few things about the 109 Six brakes...i'm trying to figure out whether to go without the booster..? and a suggestion was made to go with a CV master cylinder in place of the CB..? if you use the CV how so you do the lines? any recommendations along these lines from others?

[greenmeanie]

The master cylinder swap is not cheap but it is worth it for a couple of reasons.
1. It is easier to bleed.
2. It gives you dual circuit brakes.

The conversion pretty much involves gutting you brake system and rebuilding it as a SIII set up. To do that you need:
- Late IIA or SIII brake pedal tower.
- Brake servo
- Brake master cyl. If you are converting to discs on the front an early 110 master cylinder is a good idea as it provides the correct presure to the front while retaining some residual pressure for the rear drums.
- SIII brake line kit.
- Assorted junctions that I have not figured out yet.
- A late IIA or SIII clutch master cyl will be required unless you can figure out a new way of mounting a remote reservoir. Now that I think of it the single outlet reservoir from a 101 (looks very similar to the dual outlet replacement RN has supplied in the past except it only has a single hose barb) would be simple to mount to the bulkhead while avoiding some of the access issues.

Finally you'll need to cut the wingtop on the driver's side to provide clearance for the servo.

Cheers
Gregor

[AKRover]

The master cylinder swap is not cheap but it is worth it for a couple of reasons.
1. It is easier to bleed.
2. It gives you dual circuit brakes.

The conversion pretty much involves gutting you brake system and rebuilding it as a SIII set up. To do that you need:
- Late IIA or SIII brake pedal tower.
- Brake servo
- Brake master cyl. If you are converting to discs on the front an early 110 master cylinder is a good idea as it provides the correct presure to the front while retaining some residual pressure for the rear drums.
- SIII brake line kit.
- Assorted junctions that I have not figured out yet.
- A late IIA or SIII clutch master cyl will be required unless you can figure out a new way of mounting a remote reservoir. Now that I think of it the single outlet reservoir from a 101 (looks very similar to the dual outlet replacement RN has supplied in the past except it only has a single hose barb) would be simple to mount to the bulkhead while avoiding some of the access issues.

Finally you'll need to cut the wingtop on the driver's side to provide clearance for the servo.

Cheers
Gregor

I have a new SIII brake petal tower (with what appears all the bells and whistles) that came with my SIIA. It's not installed, but is it as simple as it looks- unbold the old components, cut away part of the wingtop, then bolt on the tower and hook up the components? I don't want to start cutting away on the wingtop, and then running into an unforseen problem.

[greenmeanie]

I have a new SIII brake petal tower (with what appears all the bells and whistles) that came with my SIIA. It's not installed, but is it as simple as it looks- unbold the old components, cut away part of the wingtop, then bolt on the tower and hook up the components? I don't want to start cutting away on the wingtop, and then running into an unforseen problem.

It is slightly more complex than that if you read the description. You will need new brake lines and clutch master cylinder and I forgot to mention that you will need to tap the intake for a vaccumm to operate the servo. As with anything to do with brakes do a lot of reading before hand so that you understand EXACTLY what you are doing. Get a manual and have a good look at a SIII dual circuit brake system as a reference.

On the other hand it is nothing too complex in the grand scheme of Land Rover modification. About the hardest part is working up the courage to cut that pristine wing top.

Cheers
Gregor