Wanted: series IIa 88

[Eric W S]

Yes sir, you are precisely correct!
Lust of the eyes
Lust of the flesh....and the wages of sin are death!
I know it quite well!! Thanks for the reminder!
On the practical side, I have been comparing vehicles that cost 10k compared to those costing 14k, and beginning to wonder if the 14k may be a better deal because someone else has done the work. If the 10k needs more work to bring it up to where the 14k is, it will end up costing the same and with less hassle.
Looking and comparing and assessing the need will hopefully determine the right choice, rather than the glitz and sparkle!

It is a used car. Period. Treat it like any other used car purchase. You don't want rust, then don't buy one with it. It should be safe, should be maintained and should look fairly nice. It should steer fairly nicely, brake without complaint and give you no other reasons to worry about your safety. Not that tough really, but very very hard to find.

There is no need to get wrapped up in this BS that since it is a Series truck that it has any great value. Most don't have value to begin with. Most owners think their POS is worth as much as you will pay. Be smarter. Make sure you actually drive the truck and know the basics about it. If the brakes need to be pumped, what does that mean? If the steering is heavy, what repairs are needed? Et al, etc.

So patiently look for a truck with a good bulk head, one that runs safely, has been maintained, and start from there. Like the one Ike had listed.

If your dead set on spending cash go to the chicago land rover club BBS and you will find one for sale at 15k that supposedly has been restored. From the description given, I doubt is a true restoration. Sounds like a frame swap and refurbishment to me. But I haven't seen the truck either, nor I will I offer to look at it.

So find a good mechanic that works on series near you. They will know if one of "theirs" is for sale. Look at the for sale sections on discoweb, d-90, and the other boards. Set up a search on Craigslist. Find all the rover clubs within 500 miles and look at their boards and I bet you will eventually find a nice truck in good condition in your budget.

[graniterover]

BTW, you need one with a galvanized frame. No way I'd spend that much on a truck I know I'd drive in winter in NY. If you change your mind about owning it after you've driven through the salt there, the value will be less, and if you do want to keep it, the galvanized version will last.

[daveb]

Rosie

I've done frame up rebuilds and/or frame replacements on 4 series land rovers. one of those was a "designa chassis" brand coils sprung conversion. I've also participated in several of others' rebuilds, strip-downs etc, and I've done numerous engine and transmission swaps and transmission and transfer box rebuilds. I've watched the market go up and down with varying economic trends and if there is anything that can be said about the value of a Land Rover it is that they are only worth what someone will pay. Excellent runners with minimal or easily repaired issues can be had for less than 5k IF you know what you are looking at and what is involved in a specific repair. Or you can buy a fully restored example for anywhere from $8500 on up to $25k or more. And MAYBE it will have been done correctly. The biggest misunderstanding in these trucks is thinking that you can spend a ton of money and get a car that is guaranteed in any way to be trouble free for x amount of time. Remember it is a LAND ROVER.

So, that said, you don't need to spend tons of money for some "flawless" "collector piece." I don't recommend buying sight unseen as a first time LR owner. Yes you can spend 12k now on one that is already done or you can spend 12k later fixing everything yourself. But you can also get a good truck for a decent price if you take your time and shop around, and find one that is structurally sound that might just need a few things or might even just be driveable -as they usually are- despite the various issues- , and as they *all* have issues. I know you have at least one LR owning friend up there in Jupiter Hollow. If you can get her to look at one with you she should be able to help you figure out what you are in for...

In the meantime we'll keep an eye out for some deals for you.

And don't listen to the guys that say there is no inherent value in a series LR, look how the prices hold up against the test of time vs. the newer mass-produced LR vehicles. A 1960 LR sells for the same average price today that it did 10 years ago within a range of ordinary market fluctuation. While the Discos and Range Rovers plummet down to nothing after 5 or 10 years on the road. (For a myriad of reasons that don't necessarly have anything to do with their quality or usefuleness) With appropriate maintenance your series LR will hold its value. OTOH I agree with I think it was Eric WS in syaing that just because it is a Series does not mean it is a piece of gold, and rusty junk is, sometimes sadly, still just rusty junk.

Dave


edited for clarification in blue

[Rosie]

All good points and well taken!
More ammo in the belt!
I appreciate it!!

[Eric W S]

. OTOH I agree with I think it was Eric WS in syaing that just because it is a Series does not mean it is a piece of gold, and rusty junk is, sometimes sadly, still just rusty junk.

Dave

Hit the nail on the head. The advice was offered in light of her experience.

I agree whole heartedly that a nicely done truck that is rust free will appreciate with age. However, when your just starting out, you really do not have the requisite knowledge to read an ad, look at pictures and tell if a truck is as described or if it is even worth any effort.

[Rosie]

Are there key things to look for in an ad that would give it away as something to avoid, or to pursue?
And when they say engine rebuilt, how do you know if it was done well?
When they say all original, that may not be so good, right?
If they have put a series III engine in a series II truck, is that acceptable?
Is it better to buy a vehicle from the person who did the restoration?
There seem to be a lot of "little guys" out there that take on this project, and then sell it when they are done....what kinds of things can they do that are not acceptable? Even if they have the right parts, can they botch up the job?
Some say original frame, but probably better to have a new galvanized?
I don't hear too much about transmissions....
Thanks for all this info, and I hope these conversations will be of use to some other person just getting into LR series.
Thanks!

[daveb]

-Are there key things to look for in an ad that would give it away as something to avoid,

yes, too many to list...i tend to avoid uk trucks as they are worse than ours

-or to pursue?

sure, lots of nice parts. galvy stuff in particular

-And when they say engine rebuilt, how do you know if it was done well?

you don't, but: mile socvered since rebuild. 10k miles proves that they got it somewhat right. 500 miles, then why are they selling it. ask what was done during the rebuild as that can vary greatly.

-When they say all original, that may not be so good, right?

original and working= good; original and not working= "eh"

-If they have put a series III engine in a series II truck, is that acceptable?

it is to me. but the SII engines are often smoother than the later ones. YMMV.

-Is it better to buy a vehicle from the person who did the restoration?

you might pay less if you get it one or two sellers later as those owners don't have to make up the resto cost. but they may have fubared up a few things or things may be worn out.

-There seem to be a lot of "little guys" out there that take on this project, and then sell it when they are done....what kinds of things can they do that are not acceptable?

No END of answers to that question. They are called SPOTs. Stupid Previous Owner Tricks. Household wiring used in the engine bay, incorrect fasteners, welding things that shouldn't be and not welding things that should for instance. I remember spendding half a day just getting the floors out of Dixon kenner's Dormobile, they were held in by 3" fine thread bolts, 37 square drive sheetmetal screws and 25 pop rivets. Instead of the stock setup of a dozen or so speednuts and screws.

-Even if they have the right parts, can they botch up the job?

YOU BETHCA

-Some say original frame, but probably better to have a new galvanized?

Original & solid = good; original & rusty = bad.

galvanised is almost always good.

-I don't hear too much about transmissions....

Trans rebuilds can cost anywhere from a few hundred to $3000 depending on who does it and what is needed. Make sure they shift correctly into all gears and don't pop out on the overrun. That said, trans swaps are relatively easy so a dodgy one could be good ammunition to drive the price down enough to where you can afford the replacement.

[Tim Smith]

...Thanks for all this info, and I hope these conversations will be of use to some other person just getting into LR series...

I think this conversation is great.

You don't need to be new to rovers to find a conversation like this helpful. I for one am learning stuff and I've had series trucks in my life for practically all my life. Good stuff!

[Eric W S]

Are there key things to look for in an ad that would give it away as something to avoid, or to pursue?
And when they say engine rebuilt, how do you know if it was done well?
When they say all original, that may not be so good, right?
If they have put a series III engine in a series II truck, is that acceptable?
Is it better to buy a vehicle from the person who did the restoration?
There seem to be a lot of "little guys" out there that take on this project, and then sell it when they are done....what kinds of things can they do that are not acceptable? Even if they have the right parts, can they botch up the job?
Some say original frame, but probably better to have a new galvanized?
I don't hear too much about transmissions....
Thanks for all this info, and I hope these conversations will be of use to some other person just getting into LR series.
Thanks!

Your putting the cart before the carriage. I have admired series rovers for quite some time. At the end of the day I have come to realize how much I still have to learn.

Start logically. Go to the RN catalog or website and start from the beginning. Learn to recognize each of the Series by sight. There visual differences between the I, II, IIa, and III. Learn them. They have a page for it.

Learn the british terms. Find out what a boot, breakfast, hood, bonnet, and wings are. What does NAS or NADA refer to? What does ROW mean? CKD? What is a tropical top? Petrol? Elephant Hide? Grey Leathercloth?

Buy the history of land rovers from our hosts. Read it. Find other printed references such as the Brookland book that has road tests from the 50s and 60s. Pay attention to period photos. Really pay attention. They will tell what these wagons looked like originally. Google land rover ads on the internet. Browse Pangolin4x4, East Coast Rover, Lanny Clark Rovers, the Land Rover Ranch, etc, and see how they restore things. East Coast Rover has tons of great info for the series rover. Read their creed. Enjoy their restoration pictures.

Learn the basics. What are the stock colors for Series? What body configurations did they come in? What were the tire sizes and widths offered? What engines were offered and in what years? What does 88" and 109" actually mean? When did rover change from positive to negative earth? When was the Zenith used as opposed to the Solex? When were brakes single line or dual line and servo'd?

Once you have some basic knowledge you can start sifting through the BS. But you need to learn the basics first. Start by searching the BBS on all of your questions above. You'll be amazed at what you'll learn.

Read all the posts on the BBS. You'll get an idea real quick of potential problem areas and increase your basic knowledge. Plus it makes slow days at the office bearable.

Do you have the Series II/IIA owners manual? Its cheap and will give you a big head start. It will tell you all sorts of good things. Important things like service items and intervals.

[Rosie]

Eric, you are an excellent researcher!!!
I agree with you completely. I am spending as much time as I can learning...but not over the curve yet.
Thanks for the navigations!

[daveb]

Again, i have to second what Eric said. (We gotta stop agreeing so much Eric)

When I 1st started looking for a truck I read everythiung I could find. The Haynes "Series Land Rover Guide to DIY Restoration" by Lindsay Porter was a great book for me I read it cover to cover more than once before even owning a truck. Plus I was on the LRO mailing list and using every info resource available at the time.

And after all that I still bought a truck that needed a new frame. Although it could have been repaired I guess, and the truck was only $2650 and I drove it home to DC from Potsdam, NY. It was very original and unmolested which made for an easy if expensive rebuild.

Eric, you are an excellent researcher!!!
I agree with you completely. I am spending as much time as I can learning...but not over the curve yet.
Thanks for the navigations!

[PH4]

From my perspective, I agree one of the best things you can do is get to know what a stock Series I, II, IIA, or III is supposed to look like and the parts it consists of and then it is a matter of solid (mostly) chassis and mechanicals. There is nothing wrong with adding on non-stock parts etc but IMHO the less the rover has been drilled cut painted etc from original the easier it is to restore, maintain, or purchase parts.

[Eric W S]

Again, i have to second what Eric said. (We gotta stop agreeing so much Eric)

Better than Flaming each other!

[Rosie]

Where on the RN site can I find detailed descriptions of the series trucks? I have searched and cannot find it. I know they have one diagram, but that is all I can find.
If anyone has any links to comparisons of the series trucks in pics with descriptions, I would be glad to get it.
I may have to get the manual as you say, but hoping to find more visuals online.
Thanks!

[Blueboy]

Rosie,

Eric mentioned an excellent source for Series info and pics - ECR.

Here is the link you need to start - http://www.eastcoastrover.com/INFOseries.html

Once you are on the ECR site, also review the restorations/refurbs done by the shop to gain additional knowledge.

Best of luck,

Jaime