Defender Central

[leafsprung]

Care

"Certainly when it comes to health care." As far as human nature goes, I think Lane Rover hit on this. If the doctor you visit does not give a rat's patoot if you are happy with his service, you will receive bad service. This is a given, and will certainly happen if he does not have to compete with his competitors to earn your business. It is unrealistic to think otherwise. Nationalized healthcare is a horrible, horrible idea.

Yeah, because none of the THIRTY SIX nations with better healthcare systems than ours are nationalized :

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Looks like we edged out Slovinia though. Whew.

The reality is that competition as you describe it does not exist in our system and lack of regulation has given rise to ineffective, inefficient, expensive healthcare which is beyond the reach of a significant portion of people. When our healthcare is controlled by the insurance industry, and their bottom line is inversely proportional to the quality of care you receive, what do you think the result will be?

Thank god competition/free markets/capitalism/ronald reagans ghost are all ensuring we are getting a deal on our $hitty healthcare right? Maybe not:

http://www.photius.com/rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_2005.html

The reality is our system is awesome . . .at making money, but fairly poor at caring for peoples health.

[TedW]

I have 12 employees and provide full health an dental coverage.

This year I am looking at a 21% increase in premium costs for our small company.
Please be careful when listening to scare stories about "government bureaucrats" making medical decisions in a "nationalized" healthcare system. My experience (and, I assume, yours) has been in dealing with the "insurance bureaucrats" who control our current system and who can and do veto the decisions of doctors.

In the past two months I have had two employees denied coverage for serious treatments/surgeries that the Insurance co. deemed "experimental." Forget the fact that the same company covered the same treatments for the same employees last year. You can chalk it up to belt-tightening, I suppose.

Oh, and don't forget about the threats of "rationing" under a universal coverage system. We have plenty of rationing now. Just ask anyone who is not covered / can't get coverage.

Last vent: My Canadian relatives love their system, and would never trade it for our "free market" system. I had an employee (Canadian citizen married to a yank) who would not give up her Canadian citizenship because she wanted to keep her Canadian coverage.

Bring on Single Payer!

Just my $0.02. And I'm a Republican. Flame away..........

[Daurie]

Wow had I know I would have sparked this I might have though twice!! All of these issues are very debatable with first hand experience leaning both directions. As far as global warming goes I have to say I agree it is still in theory stages. There are good arguments for and against it's validity. I know I'm quickly shunned by liberals when I bring up the big global cooling scare back in the 80's. It was quickly forgotten when global warming became "popular". The thing that gets me are people who are quick to cast the blame, that are just as guilty. Talk to me about global warming after you fit catalytic converters or particulate filters to your Rovers.

The thing that concerns me about social health care is really nothing more than the fact that the government will have their hand a little futher into my life. I mean who can tell which is worse at this point, having my health care level controlled by insurance adjusters or government bureaucrats??? If I die I can't pay the insurance company and if I die I can't pay taxes which one will keep me alive just enough to be productive and able to pay them?

As far as health care goes our best defence is against "big healthcare" and/or "big government" is prevention. Big Macs and Whoppers aren't good for longevity.

[Rineheitzgabot]

Yeah, because none of the THIRTY SIX nations with better healthcare systems than ours are nationalized :

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

Looks like we edged out Slovinia though. Whew.

The reality is that competition as you describe it does not exist in our system and lack of regulation has given rise to ineffective, inefficient, expensive healthcare which is beyond the reach of a significant portion of people. When our healthcare is controlled by the insurance industry, and their bottom line is inversely proportional to the quality of care you receive, what do you think the result will be?

Thank god competition/free markets/capitalism/ronald reagans ghost are all ensuring we are getting a deal on our $hitty healthcare right? Maybe not:

http://www.photius.com/rankings/total_health_expenditure_as_pecent_of_gdp_2000_to_2005.html

The reality is our system is awesome . . .at making money, but fairly poor at caring for peoples health.

For both, Leafsprung and Greanmeanie:

Please understand with my ranting about not going socialized, I never once said that we have a great system, now. In fact, I believe that our system is a mess, now. It is not due to the free market system, however. I believe it has to do with a runaway legal system, and health insurance companies taking over the roll of the consumer, and lazy citizens who do not "shop" for their healthcare. Yeah, when one (1) tylenol costs $8, when administered by a nurse, rather than a whole bottle for $8 when administered by me, there's a problem. Most people don't know it, and the insurance company pays the bill, and thus, prices continue to rise. Insurance companies just have to follow suit, since they are in the business to make money as well.

Lawsuits are the real problem. Doctors must cover their a$$ in their profession, hence the "fat" bills. Anybody can sue anybody for anything, and in front of a jury, sympathy wins. Who feels sympathetic toward a six-figure-a-year doctor, when a disfigured patient, or a family member of a dead child, god forbid? Answer, I do, however most people don't. The doctors could lose it all, over a malpractice suit. It certainly might be deserved, but we have all certainly heard of bull$hit lawsuits that weren't at all the doctor's fault. I have personally been involved in a manufacturing company that has been sued more than twenty times over the past seven years, and every, single one was complete bull$hit; completely un-warranted, like the coffee-in-the-drivethrough-at-McDonald's-suit that we all have heard of.

I truly appreciate your non-cynical view of some doctors who do not do it for the money, but rather as a sort of a ministry. I wish it were true for all of them. The truth is, in our free market, if you do what you love, and are passionate about it, you will be successful. If you don't love it, don't do it. Enlightened self-interest is the root of a free-market economic system. When the government regulates/controls things too much, it takes away the incentive for the entrepreneur.

I agree with your last statement about the current state of our healthcare system. Again, the bigger problem for me, is the inequity of throwing my tax dollars, at a bunch of fat, happy, complacent, out-of-touch politcians, and hence giving them more power. Government should mildly regulate the free market, but stay the hell out of the way, for the most part. Instead, we seem to be looking to government to solve all our problems, as dare I say it, a "Nanny state".

[leafsprung]

Enlightened self-interest is the root of a free-market economic system. When the government regulates/controls things too much, it takes away the incentive for the entrepreneur.

Again, the current system is not a free market. Socialized medicine clearly works. Most of the best healthcare systems are socialized . . .

Again, the bigger problem for me, is the inequity of throwing my tax dollars, at a bunch of fat, happy, complacent, out-of-touch politcians, and hence giving them more power.

So your real problem is not with socialized healthcare but rather your lack of faith in the american government and its leaders. The ironic thing is that you feel self interest is good in the market, but not in washington.

[Momo]

As an employee of the Federal Government, I can say without a doubt that you don't want Washington in charge of your healthcare.

The institutionalized inefficiency and near total lack of accountability within the Federal Government are enough to scare the hell out of me when it comes to this issue. I see it first hand all the time.

I can give you specific examples, but generally, here's the deal:

When I try to resolve problem X, Y, or Z at work, the name of the game is pass the buck and make excuses. Even when there's action, it is long delayed and usually doesn't resolve the problem the first time. I'm talking about simple issues like plumbing in our building, or equipment repair, or policies/procedures on whatever matter.

When it comes to HR performance issues, the Feds are the most ineffectual managers you'll ever see.
I know people who practically never meet standards and yet they keep their jobs. Performance evals get "pencil-whipped" and corrective actions almost never happen unless it personally affects a manager.

In fact the managers themselves are products of the same culture of low expectations. They often don't know any better. People see they can get by with poor performance so that's exactly what they deliver. I'm talking about people who have a month, a year or even decades on the job.

The Feds do everything low bid. In many instances this is a waste of your money because they end up buying substandard materiel that needs replacement three times as often than if they just bought a better quality widget the first time.

Anyone who wants to convince me that Washington can run healthcare should look at the track record on other social spending. Medicare and Social Security are collapsing. HUD is partly responsible for the mortgage implosion. The Feds have gutted the quality of public education. Would you hire these people to run your business?

Time and again promises are made about how government intervention will fix things, and time and again the spending grows and the results diminish. Can you think of another institution that rewards its own failure with a bigger budget? It's not really a partisan thing, it's because the Feds are bloated and incompetent by design.

Name me one effective social program in the last fifty years that is solvent, efficient and shrinking as a result of its own success.

Finally, show me where in the U.S. Constitution it says the Feds have the power to compel all citizens to buy into a national healthcare plan.

[czenkov]

You guys obviously know much more about this than I and I honestly don't have an opinion because of my limited knowledge so I am a little hesitant to post. BUT, I saw an article the other day that talked about how many doctors would opt for a career change if given the chance due to the paperwork and difficulties caused by insurance companies. It made me wonder how many would change careers if they were tied to the profits dictated by government? Not looking for an argument. It is merely a question that wasn't answered by the article IIRC. Oh, and on thread topic - - Cool pic! I would like for the Defender to return to NA. Hopefully Tata will see a market.

[jp-]

Man, some good stuff here.

Momo, your last post was right on. Also, Rineheitzgabot you really hit on the largest problem which is a legal one. We have got to make it harder for all these bogus lawsuits to get rammed through. There was a time in America when lawyers had something called ethics. They refused to take cases that they knew were bogus. They simply told the clients to get lost, that they had no case. Then all of a sudden there were a lot more people studying law and becoming lawyers. Somewhere down the line they decided that it was better to eat than not, and gave up their ethical standards.

There is an easy way to fix this though. It is done in several other countries. If a person brings up a clearly stupid lawsuit and loses, they must pay all costs, theirs and the defendants. That's it.

The more doctors get sued (wrongly) the more cost go up, and the less likely it is for more prospective doctors to enter the field. I even considered it at one point, but no way now.

Also, Yorker, great story on British Leyland. Liberals hate history. Almost all the things they propose have been clearly shown to fail, if only they would open their history books.

Global Warming - There was a fantastic article that I read a few months back called, "It's the Sun Stupid." Few realize that the sun goes through cycles just like our own planet. The majority of our surface temperature is completely dependent on the sun. If more energy is released in one year or over ten years it affects us.

[JSBriggs]

...Name me one effective social program in the last fifty years that is solvent, efficient and shrinking as a result of its own success.

I would completely agree, Mo. The postal service is about as close to a 'success' the Feds have, and their service and quality are woefully lacking when compared to its private counterparts.

And speaking of health care, at what point did heath care become an insurance issue? At what point did paying $100 to see a doctor become so intolerable that we demanded insurance so we would only have a $20 co-pay? When these are the things that we (as Joe American) feel we are entitled to, and make it a prioriety for government to address, it just reiterates that we are just a bunch of spoiled rich kids. Compare our standard of living to that of the rest of the world. The fact that we have running water (hot and cold even) puts us above what most of the world has. Health care for them is a luxury.

-Jeff

[Rineheitzgabot]

Again, the current system is not a free market. Socialized medicine clearly works. Most of the best healthcare systems are socialized . . ..

It is more free market than any other system in the world. Your opinion about what works and what doesn't is just that--your opinion, and/or based on a WHO rating (which is based on? Yeah, like the WHO is a completely UN-biased organization). Look and see where in the world, the majority of R+D is done in the Pharmaceutical industry. Without a free market, and the potential financial gain, sorry, no R+D like this. No Cialis. No Plavix. No Viagra (did I just type that?).

So your real problem is not with socialized healthcare but rather your lack of faith in the american government and its leaders. The ironic thing is that you feel self interest is good in the market, but not in washington.

There is no irony in this; however, this is an interesting comment. I am not sure what point you are trying to make, but I will attempt to explain, based on what I think you are trying to say. Yes, I absolutely believe that enlightened self-interest is the key to a free market system. No, I absolutely do not think that self-interest is good in government leaders. This may sound ridiculous, but this is where I think of an occupation being a sort of ministry. Public servants are what they are supposed to be. Most senators and representatives have held positions too long, and have forgotten who they work for. Do YOU think that self interest is good in our government leaders?

Decisions that are made by our leaders in the government should not lead to personal, financial success for them. Who knows, maybe this is WHY I think they are corrupt (because they are employed for years, making 6-figures, and never experience the glory of winning or the agony of defeat. This, perhaps makes them fat, happy, and complacent).

I apologize for the dissertation on human nature and what not, but my problem is philosophical, and general. It is not about something specific and timely, but rather what our constitution stands for.

[leafsprung]

There is no irony in this

The irony is that you extol the virtues of a capitalist system yet lament the leadership it has given rise to.

Compare our standard of living to that of the rest of the world. The fact that we have running water (hot and cold even) puts us above what most of the world has. Health care for them is a luxury.

Briggs, you need to get out more. Lets compare our quality of life to the average developed nation. Our education system is worse, life expectancy is lower, and we work longer hours with less vacation. Id like to think we can imrove on that.

Global Warming - There was a fantastic article that I read a few months back called, "It's the Sun Stupid." Few realize that the sun goes through cycles just like our own planet. The majority of our surface temperature is completely dependent on the sun. If more energy is released in one year or over ten years it affects us.

The sun is in a period of reduced activity at the moment so that idea is bogus. I support any theory that asserts man has a negative affect on his environment and encourages people to clean up their collective acts. Its foolish to believe we can keep pissing in the stream and think we are not going to taste something funny eventually. Now, where can i get a global cooling bumper sticker?

[Rineheitzgabot]

The irony is that you extol the virtues of a capitalist system yet lament the leadership it has given rise to.

Still don't see any irony. A system of government is separate from an economic system, and should be.

The sun is in a period of reduced activity at the moment so that idea is bogus. I support any theory that asserts man has a negative affect on his environment and encourages people to clean up their collective acts. Its foolish to believe we can keep pissing in the stream and think we are not going to taste something funny eventually. Now, where can i get a global cooling bumper sticker?

Global warming is a THEORY. Irony? here's some irony: How did the glaciers melt, if there hasn't been warming of the globe in the past, and certainly BEFORE the advent of the evil combustion engine. Global cooling? You seem to be joking about it, but brother, many scientists were "all over that" as recent as 30 years ago. Don't you see the irony? In the history of the world, there have always been the chicken littles warning us of the impending rapture. Our godless society needed something to believe in, so the next "sky is falling"-concept became global warming. Mark my words, someday we will be joking about global warming, just as you joke about global cooling (which attenuates your whole argument).

MOMO, your post above is well put.

[greenmeanie]

Finally, show me where in the U.S. Constitution it says the Feds have the power to compel all citizens to buy into a national healthcare plan.

Momo that's called taxes. It is the cost of being a civilised country. I do not mind paying taxes as long as I see it as value for money. I resent paying taxes to the current government as I do not see their use of that money as giving me value. I do think of paying taxes for national healthcare as value for money compared to health insurance.

Your description of the feds pretty much describes any corporation that is large enough for people to hide. It was very resonant of my company.

Next time you fly look at the machine you are sitting in. All the components were made by the lowest bidder. The same principles are applied across most industries.

[Eric W S]

Still don't see any irony. A system of government is separate from an economic system, and should be.



Global warming is a THEORY. Irony? here's some irony: How did the glaciers melt, if there hasn't been warming of the globe in the past, and certainly BEFORE the advent of the evil combustion engine. Global cooling? You seem to be joking about it, but brother, many scientists were "all over that" as recent as 30 years ago. Don't you see the irony? In the history of the world, there have always been the chicken littles warning us of the impending rapture. Our godless society needed something to believe in, so the next "sky is falling"-concept became global warming. Mark my words, someday we will be joking about global warming, just as you joke about global cooling (which attenuates your whole argument).

MOMO, your post above is well put.

Good Point. Known fact that the world does indeed go thru Ice Ages. We're actually due for one in the near future. 10,000 year cycle.

But there is strong evidence that our foot print on the planet is causing some alarming things.

EwS

[Rineheitzgabot]

Momo that's called taxes. It is the cost of being a civilised country. I do not mind paying taxes as long as I see it as value for money. I resent paying taxes to the current government as I do not see their use of that money as giving me value. I do think of paying taxes for national healthcare as value for money compared to health insurance.

Your description of the feds pretty much describes any corporation that is large enough for people to hide. It was very resonant of my company.

Next time you fly look at the machine you are sitting in. All the components were made by the lowest bidder. The same principles are applied across most industries.

Where in the history of the world has socialism worked? The above seems to be an attempt to mainstream socialism, and the effect it has. My company produces a high liability product; lifting humans into the air. We do not always go with the low bid. Quality and delivery are sometimes more important than price.

If you believe that any large corporation is like the government, and is run inefficiently, with little accountability, then why would you want to throw your own money to them (you are making a case for taxes).

When my company runs into economic problems, we have to cut costs. This is done through several means; almost all of these means are painful. Most companies in the private sector must do this. When was the last time the government did this? When was the last time they cut costs; laid people off, cut entitlement programs, etc? Their first order of business upon finding out that they can't pay for something is to increase revenues, which equals higher taxes!

Man, how great that would be if I could hand down en edict to all my customers to mandate that they purchase more from me, or simply raise the price to whatever I needed it to be! Impossible? The government does it perpetually!