Starter spinning but not engaging well

[NickDawson]

Ok gang - we're in the thick of it. I've enlisted the help of my old man, combined we have a full 6 months of mechanical experience

So Im reminded again that this is a 2.5L engine (and also reminded of the suggestions about not buying a UK import...)

The starter is clearly aftermarket, and we were able to get the 10mm bolts off the studs no problem. Once we got the starter off, it was unclear what needed cleaning.

The armature sits in a sleeve of magnets, so we cleaned that sleeve out and cleaned the armature well. On the end of the armature is a small gear that turns 3 nested gears where the starter mates to the engine - we cleaned all of that well.

After reassembly when I turn the key, we get a loud, rapid clicking. If you put your hand on the starter, you can feel its doing something...but nothing is turning over, and there's no whrrrr sound at all.

Anyone have any ideas?

On a related note - if we wanted to - could we buy a replacement at an autoparts store? Enjoying the tinkering right now, but Monday is street cleaning and I dont want to get towed if we can't get it running.

[4flattires]

Basics...

Let's start with a pic of your starter. Even if you have to grab a pic from the internet (should you not have a camera). That will help us formulate some solid next steps.

If you have a camera, please post detailed pics of whatever state the starter is in. Brushes, gears, thing-a-ma-jigs...etc.

...I dont want to get towed if we can't get it running.

Fear not. Push, pull, tug or tow to start. You don't need no stinkin' starter.

[NickDawson]

OK, we sang Mohan's song the whole time and it helped...kinda!
After re-fitting the starter a few times, we are back where we started (pun? no!) ...picutures soon. Its still doing a whrrrr but its anecdotally 25% improved. My old man is of the opinion that the solenoid is responsible for 'kicking the gears out' - so does the starter work by electomagnet force pushing the armature into the gears, or does the solenoid push the gears into the stater?

Either way, its more reliable....

Onto shocks - some may remember that I ripped a shock apart when I drove the rover 3 hours to Lynchburg (home of said old man) and we took it out on some trails... we started the process today or replacing the shocks and after acquiring a new angle grinder discovered that we could drill out the rusted cotter pin (see previous threads...no, on second thought, dont). Long story short, is there a right or wrong way to fit those bushings? They appear to be directional...we went with blunt side into eye of shock...right?

tomorrow is removal of hard top, fitting of soft top (our first father/son endeavor circa one year go, we're old hat!) ... oil change, diff oil change, and the other 3 shocks... should not take more than an hour, right?

right?

one hour?


also, any ideas about a new stater for a 2.5L?

[4flattires]

Class....pay attention now.

My old man is of the opinion that the solenoid is responsible for 'kicking the gears out' - so does the starter work by electomagnet force pushing the armature into the gears, or does the solenoid push the gears into the stater?

Your armature rotates, and only rotates. It's job is then done. In the absence of a pic of your starter, I am making a WAG that you have this style, and YES, the plunger noted in this pic pushes the starter drive from its previous sleepy state into an engagement position through the shock and awe of 'lectricity (ok....electro-magnetism makes it move).

I'll let others have a say in the bushing drama. I'm done for the day.

... oil change, diff oil change, and the other 3 shocks... should not take more than an hour, right?

right?

one hour?

Is there beer involved? Whoops...my bad.

How much beer is involved?

[NickDawson]

Thanks 4flattires, that pic helps a lot. We also found a great clip on YouTube about how starters work.
It looks like this one is a little different

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickdawson/tags/starterrhd1/

On the end of the armature is a little gear that mates with a series of 3 other little gears to turn one bigger outer gear - sorry, can't get a pic of that to save my life. What I'm wondering is what is on the other side of all of that - the part that mates with the engine itself (is that the fly wheel?) - if that were missing teeth or gummed up, it would explain the whrrr

Regardless, our cleaning resulted in about a 25% improvement in reliability...

[4flattires]

Gear reduction starters...

This is what you have, with an internal (built in) solenoid. If your satisfied with the performance, then enjoy.

If the starter comes out again, I would encourage you to view the condition of the flywheel ring gear, by using a large pry bar/screw driver to rotate the engine and evaluate the condition of the ring gear teeth. The starter drive engages these teeth and that's what makes noise when you start the vehicle.

[NickDawson]

This is what you have, with an internal (built in) solenoid. If your satisfied with the performance, then enjoy.
.

Thanks - well, right now it won't start at all...so satisfied I am not.

Anyone know about my replacement options for a 2.5L engine? Still wondering if there is something I can pick up in town easily. I'll check with our hosts as well.

Thanks all!

[SafeAirOne]

Anyone know about my replacement options for a 2.5L engine?

Presumably you mean the starter....

If so, just take it to your local auto electric shop. Every village has one. They can probably fix it for a lot less than you can get a new one for.

[NickDawson]

Ok ... Wow that was hard... not the most time consuming that I;ve done, but maybe the hardest or most involved....
I decided tonight to tackle the starter once again. I was able to reach the bottom bolt with no issues. The top was, well, a challenge. On the 2.5L engine it is physically impossible to reach that top bolt wihtout a worm hole or at least a degree in partical physics.

So I dropped the exhause just south of the manafold and then again just past the middle cross member. After that, I used the force to find the top bolt and 2 hours later had the starter out.

as you can see from these pics, the teeth are not in great shape at all.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nickdawson/sets/72157623667198887/

Thats got me worried. They arent great pics but clearly the ends of the teeth (if you are looking straight on at the bendix). I still cleaned it up with degreaser and a tooth brush .... another hour later when I got everything back in place, I was surprised that it started up pretty well!

I'd call it a 80% increase in preformance. 8 out of 10 times it fired up in 1 second... 2 of those time I had a bit of a whrrrrr and then it started in no more than 3 seconds. Improvement!

Its usually much harder to start once its warm and since I lost daylight before I could get the exhaust totally sealed tight, I'll have to finish up and test tomorrow.


So the question of the day is: can I get a replacement gear for a starter for a 2.5L engine? Wouild it be the same as the regular series III engine? Anyone think I could find a local shop that could rebuild it, gear and all?

Thanks again for the support on this thead folks! Im learning more each day!

[SafeAirOne]

It's hard to tell for sure by looking at your pics, but it for the most part looks like a standard 2.5 starter, just like the one on my diesel. Everything you ever wanted and needed to know about this starter can be found here. It's Valeo starter number 232574, which can be cross-referenced to a dozens of other mfgr's part numbers at the bottom of this page here.

[SafeAirOne]

Wrong Starter...

Disregard my last post regarding your starter--The petrol and diesel starters are different and I can't edit the post since it's more than 30 minutes old. The petrol is a 1.4 kilowatt starter whereas the diesel is a 3.1kw unit with different size starter gearwheels.

The correct 2.5 petrol part number is likely to be PRC6613N which cross-references to all these on the bottom of this page.

[NickDawson]

Feel like I have to be nearing the end of this journey - after driving it for the past two days, with it starting better but not perfectly - it died tonight. I went to take the pooch for a ride and the starter turned over once and didn't catch...the 2nd time I heard a snap and now I can hear the starter motor spinning freely... no more whrrrrr just a hummmmm

My best guess is that the last of the teeth on the bendix snapped off.

So my question that I'm still unclear about is: is that a standard size gear of some kind? I appreciate the list that SafeAriOne linked to, but its not clear to me that if I bought an entirely new starter, would it have the right gear on the end? Can I buy just the gear somewhere (and how is it attached? I didn't see a snap ring or anything). I'm open to the idea of a new or rebuilt starter too, particularly trying to find a starter shop in town - is it reasonable to think they'd be able to match the teeth?

Finally, what about the fragments that sheered off? How bad is it to have them floating around the engine?

[SafeAirOne]

My best guess is that the last of the teeth on the bendix snapped off.

- is it reasonable to think they'd be able to match the teeth?

Finally, what about the fragments that sheered off? How bad is it to have them floating around the engine?

I'd actually remove the starter and look to see what happened. I'd be surprised if the teeth that engage the flywheel broke off as you are suggesting (I think), therefore, there shouldn't be anything floating around in the engine (they would be floating around in the bottom of the bellhousing anyway, not internally in the engine.

I could do the research using the links I provided earlier, but a decent automotive electrical shop will have the geartooth count, pitch and size readily available.

The way you describe it, it sounds as if the starter motor works perfectly fine, but the mechanism that throws the starter gear out and engages it isn't functioning properly.

Take it apart and see what's wrong in there--you ain't gonna make it any more broken!

[NickDawson]

Take it apart and see what's wrong in there--you ain't gonna make it any more broken!

Thanks mark! I'll give it a shot this weekend and see what turns up. As always, I am grateful for the help.... Looking forward to the time when I can start to repay this group

[NickDawson]

So...I could be wrong...but think I found the problem
:/
How ugly is that?!?!
I've called around town and can't find a replacement starter but have some leads on repair shops that will be open on Monday.
Anyone think the local napa would have something? I'm willing to go for a new one at this point

I guess one question is whether or not those reduction gears were the primary problem or the result of me tinkering a few weeks ago? Before I found this mess, I did connect the starter right to the battery, the solenoid is kicking the bendix gear out properly.