109 tires and Michelin

[PH4]

Would someone please explain the difference to me between Michelin XL, XCL, XZL, and XS tires? Also, will 16.50s fit on 109 Rover rims and what is the difference between 7.50s? I have a spare XCL on the bonnet spare on one of my Rovers. I like the look of it. Are these good all around tires? Any other tires suggested for 109 SW. I like the stock size and do not want wider or taller tires than required. Lot of questions but help would be appreciated before I plunk down my cash for tires. I drive on highway(not interstate), sand, and sometimes mud.

[Leslie]

A) http://www.seriestrek.com/manuals/optionalparts2.pdf
Scroll down to page 59.

B) XL and XS aren't available anymore. The XCL was a respected tire, and you can find some used:

https://www.roversnorth.com/store/pm-13158-1-used-michelin-xcl-tire-750-x-16-radial.aspx

C) The XZL is the newer radial version of the XCL. Not cheap.

http://www.roversnorth.com/store/p-11066-tire-michelin-xzl-750-x-16.aspx

D) You can't use 16.5" tires on 16" rims.

E) A 6.5x16 tire is telling you that the height of the tire from the rim to the treadface is 6.5", so double that and add 16" for the wheel diameter, and you have a 29" tall tire. A 7.5x16" wheel is going to be a 31" tall tire (approximately).

F) For a 109 SW, a 7.5x16 would be good. Or, a 235/85R16 would be really close to a 7.5x16. Some people will run a 8.25x16 or a 9x16 on a 109. A 255/85R16 might work, too, but I'd suggest looking at the 235/85's...

G) Sounds like a BFG AllTerrain T/A-ko or their M/T-km might be a good tire for you to consider. Actually, I really like the Dunlop Radial Rover R/T, it might be a good one to consider, or maybe the Cooper Courser.

http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/catalog/off-road/5.html

http://dunloptires.com/dunlop/display_tire.jsp?prodline=Radial+Rover+RT&mrktarea=Light+Truck

http://www.coopertire.com/html/products/tires_lighttruck.aspx?page=courser_traction_lt&search=bySize&twtd=0&artw=7.5&rd=16

FWIW...

[J!m]

All good info there, but a bit more detail on the various Michelin tire designs...

XL: currently used by the military, and not too expensive if you find the right source. Wear is slightly better than warm butter, more like cold butter. Mike has these on his 101 (11.00-16 size) and is quite happy with them, but did note they are wearing "fast".

XCL: The "end-all be-all" of mud tires. Good for absolutely nothing else (they do look cool!). Same tread design as the XL, but a softer rubber compound. Wears like warm butter, with highway mileage ranging at less than 10K in many cases. Used on Camel Trophy trucks in the mid-eighties, so they are coveted for restorations and "Sham-el" trucks.

XS: EXCELLENT tire! designed for sand and rocky dirt roads. This 7.50-16 runs taller than normal as well, but not quite as tall as a typical 9.00-16. Still available in South Africa (Labeled Africa S quite often there- sometimes with white letters too) good wear and good on-road manners. Sucky in mud...

XZL: Basically a snow tire on steroids. Quite expensive, good performance, moderate wear. Used on later Camel trucks (well, the 110's anyway). They run narrow, but are true height. Sizes other than 7.50-16 are very hard to get, and this may be out of production now as well. I have received conflicting stories on that...

I run the (NLA) Cooper Discoverer STT (tread has been redesigned on the current STT) and I am at about 60K miles (rotating six tires onto the truck, not just four) and they are shot. Good ride and good on and off road manners, but noisy. wear is acceptable for a mud tire. If you can find these old tread ones for your truck, you will see why they are quite popular on rovers as they have the right "look" as well.

I'm in the market for tires now, so I may add to this thread as I get info on current commoly available tires for the Rovers.

[PH4]

Thank you both for your responses. I definitely like the look of the Michelin X series. Would these tires in 6.50 x 16 be acceptable on a 109 SW? Would they look or be too small? Narrow? Also, do the X series tires perform ok on wet roads?

[J!m]

7.50-16 fit well on the 109.

Also, sizes other than 7.50-16 (such as 8.25-16, 9.00-16 and 11.00-16) are much harder to get.

[Leslie]

I concur, a 6.5-16 will be small on a 109, go up to the 7.5-16 size (a 235/85R16 is a close approximation in size).

I've got 7.5-16 XZL's on my 88"; I can't speak as to the actual performance of the others. These aren't quiet (but, neither is a Series); I've got a Subaru for a commuter, so I don't see a lot of mileage either, so I can't testify as to how many miles I'll get out of them either; and while they look tough, they're not the best "mud" tire out there, (but, if it's THAT bad, use something tracked, right?? )

[J!m]

I think I may go with some nice, quiet high-mileage on-road tires, and buy a second set of chains.

I'll put my street tires and chains against any mud tire of the same size and see who gets further in the mud...

I do so many on-road miles, it just makes sense. Even driving to the Arctic Circle and beyond, there wasn't much where the mud/snow tires were needed...

And, I may get a set of XL's...

[fruitpunch]

Michelin "X" the original.... came long before all the other XZL, XCL, XL, XYZ, XS.

Michelin X was stock tire on early 90's & 110's on the continent... an all around tire. I think I got about 90000km on mine a few times around the globe . Compound pretty hard, pretty bad in the rain, good on the road, soso in mud.... was a 7.50 R16. Replaced them the with the NLA BF Track Edge, that was like rails in the snow but wore much faster.

XYZ came on a firetruck I owned, special snow tires wore out within about 2 months when temps went up, never seen another set.

[JimCT]

Truxus tires

running 255-85R 16's on our ambulance and 235's on the RR. Surprisingly quiet on the road, siped and excellent in the snow and ice and better than the coopers in the mud. Pretty damn cheap too. Just a thought

[J!m]

I'll give the Truxxus a try... Any preferred vendeor?

[fruitpunch]

Traxxus on my d90 were great just like the BFG MT the first 20k but then they get really loud. I got them when they first came out for 99 bucks free shipping, think I would go MT again... or Trac Edge if it was made again.

[J!m]

I am looking for a tire with a "street" center rib and a very aggressive side wall/tread edge to keep it (somewhat) quiet on the road when aired-up, and then I can air down and make use of the side of the tread and side walls in the nasty stuff.

Something like the old Avon tires used on the series trucks in the sixties. Those made sense for a Land-Rover, as they often served dual duty as mine does now.

I'll drive 4-8 thousand miles (or more) on a single expedition, and most of it is on road of some kind (some better than others). I need a TRUE dual-purpose tire, which I think may not exist, so the chain idea reamins...

Still searching!

[PH4]

To burden you with further questions, my 109 3 door has Firestones that were put on it in Europe and they have tubes. Is it best to run tubes? Can all tires run tubes? If not, can the Michelin Xs run tubes? Advantages of tubes?

[J!m]

Most of the Michelin tires require tubes.

You can run tubeless tires with tubes, and you obviously need tubes for tube tires.

The rims are different, with tubeless rims having a safety bead to lock the tire on the rim. This is important if you run low pressures, as we often do off-road, to keep the tire on the rim, although I have been quite lucky in not loosing a bead while off-road. They come off easier, but also seat easier as well. I use a cargo strap to crush the tread area and help set the bead as air is installed...

I happen to run tube rims with tubeless ties (and no tube installed), for many reasons.

1) Tube rims are easy to break down in the field. The same reason for the tubeless safety bead is reason for added difficulty in dismounting a tire in the field. This can save considerable weight, particularly on an 88 or 90, where space and weight carrying capacity are paramount. I carried a second un-mounted tire, knowing I could mount it myself if I shredded a tire. This saved the weight of a sixth rim in my over-packed 88.

2) Tubes require the dismounting of the tire to repair the tube. Tubeless tires often can be fixed on the rim (I have even done a plug on the truck, without letting the rest of the air out!). No jack needed...

3) Tube rims are easy to get for Land-Rovers. My 1995-spec 110 has tube rims as standard. Also, the cast aluminum "on-road" wheels love to crack and break off-road, whereas steel wheels can be fixed with good old-fashioned brute force. Basically, if your life depends on your truck getting you home, you'd better be able to repair it with a hammer...

4) If your tubeless tire gets REALLY messed up, you CAN run a tube in it. These tend to run hot, and should be avoided, but a generous application of baby powder helps.

So, I run with six mounted and balanced tires (which I rotate on the truck for even wear and maximum mileage) and I carry a tube or two in my gear along with a Safety-Seal plug kit in case two spares just isn't enough. I also have a set of Australian made Tyre-Pliers, which work great! Don't forget to practice with them before you pack them away and forget about them...

[PH4]

Lot of food for thought. If I cannot find a second hand set of Michelin X series think I will go for Cooper Courser 7.50x16. Anyone have any experience with the Courser tire?