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Last edited by JackIIA; 08-26-2010, 08:32 PM. Reason: Afew points were assumptions, not fact. And we're talking about brakes after all.1970 88 IIA -
Why would you substitute a double flare for a bubble flare? Where the bubble flares are used, the mating component has a 'female' taper for the 'male' bubble to fit into. If you purchase the lines from our hosts, they come with the correct bubble flares.
AFAIK, the factory routing for the lines was always against the inside of the frame rail. Why put the lines on top of the chassis where mud/debris collects? It also makes it difficult to get to the clips that hold the lines in place. -
First off, I'm not making any recommendations to you on how to make brake lines, nor am I endorsing the making of brake lines by anyone other than a highly trained professional.
You can make something very close to a bubble flare using a double flaring tool. Use the flat side of the tool, and the arbor you'd use to make a double flare. Cut off you're brake pipe, debur, make sure its sqaure, and then insert the arbor, and crank it down in the tool. You end up with something very close to an original bubble flare.
This page may help you.Travis
'66 IIa 88Comment
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Jeff, Travis, thanks for the comments/advice.
Yes on the FedHill site. It's the site that put a lot of this into some semblance of order for me. They also will rent a solid double flaring tool if you buy pipe from them.
Why would you substitute a double flare for a bubble flare? Where the bubble flares are used, the mating component has a 'female' taper for the 'male' bubble to fit into. If you purchase the lines from our hosts, they come with the correct bubble flares.
I am running my own pipes, not RN ones, so all flares will have to be made. Doing so mostly because I want to switch to Copper-Nickel, rather than use steel. Thought about going with the Automec ones, but I’ve got a couple of weird quirks and I didn’t want to be tied to a specific length. I also will probably do fuel too. Plus, I think it’s interesting.
“AFAIK, the factory routing for the lines was always against the inside of the frame rail. Why put the lines on top of the chassis where mud/debris collects? It also makes it difficult to get to the clips that hold the lines in place.”
Is that true??? That seems like it would be easier. No worrying about clearance with body parts. The PO really messed with all things brakes. There is nothing original about my existing routing.
I mean NOTHING. It’s a bunch of spaghetti and rats nests and when he had some extra piping at the end of a run, he just made a silly straw rather than use the proper length piping. Depending on my mood, I either laugh or want to throttle the guy. Everything was a shortcut. So, I have no factory routing to reference. I know Terriann suggested factory routing is on top of the chassis. I don’t really care where it goes, as long as it doesn’t rub anything. I assumed the top of chassis must be right because of rocks, tree stumps, or whatever could theoretically kick up from the road. Which is it??
As far as the bubble vs double thing. I think the bubble ones have been superseded based on what I had read on Fed Hill:
“Notice that old British fittings use the obsolete SAE convex (bubble) flare with a 45
degree backside angle. Beginning in the '70's the DIN (bubble) flare with a 90 degree
backside angle was adopted. You can use the P10 with either the SAE/DIN bubble flare or SAE double flare. The DIN flare will work in older fittings that had the SAE convex flare form and eliminates the problem of the flare wedging the nut open causing you to curse as you try to remove your old brake lines. If you are re-using your original brake line nuts and are having difficulties in starting the nut into the fitting, examine the end of the nut carefully for swelling.”
OK. So does this mean you guys are signing off on all items but numbers 3 and 9?
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1970 88 IIAComment
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I don't have a problem with anything you said....including 3 or 9. Run the lines however you want to. Mine are on top of the frame for exactly the reasons you point out. If you do a good job running making them, you won't be servicing them again for a long, long time anyway. Its your truck, do it whatever way blows your skirt up.
As for the flare...well...I've seen guys do an an extra wide single flare w/ brit fittings before and make it work by torquing the crap out of the fitting. I'm saying you should do this, just that I've seen it work. Mine are done in the manner I suggested, and appear to be fine. I will say that if you rent the tool you reference, the job will go easier. That tool works way better than the standard double flaring tool that you can buy at any auto parts shop.Travis
'66 IIa 88Comment
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They stated it was obsolete, not superceded. Big difference. In any case, you certainly should not substitute a double flare for a bubble flare - they are completely different animals. However, you should be able to use a DIN bubble flare in place of the original British SAE bubble flare (according to the FedHill info).
What is interesting is that OReilly's on-line shows a listing of brake lines supposedly for British vehicles. They state that they have an ISO bubble flare and the illustration shows the correct style bubble flare:
Last edited by jac04; 08-25-2010, 09:18 AM.Comment
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Brake line on top of chassis...
Are we saying that we're running the brake line along the top surface of the chassis or along the top portion of the inboard surface of the chassis?
If it's the top surface, are you threading the line through the rear tub supports? I think that'd be an colossal PITA when you eventually need to replace them later!
I can't think of an instance where debris has taken out any of my brake lines. Rust, sure. Overpressurization + rust, yup. Rusty wheel cyllinders, uh huh. Never debris though.
EDIT: Also, that 007 flaring tool at federal hill looks AWESOME! Watch the video--It takes me as long to clamp the tubing in my flaring tool as it takes them to make up a whole line!
Looks like a Sealey PFT/02 flairing tool--125 pounds if you order it from the UK...Last edited by SafeAirOne; 08-25-2010, 08:40 AM.--Mark
1973 SIII 109 RHD 2.5NA Diesel
0-54mph in just under 11.5 minutes
(9.7 minutes now that she's a 3-door).Comment
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I'm going to look into this abit more before pulling the trigger given the bubble issue. Thanks. Mark - I was thinking on top of the chassis, which is what Travis did. I think Jeff ran it along the inside of each chassis rail. I'd expect you wouldn't go through the tub supports. And yeah, that flaring tool sounds pretty good and is $380 to buy.1970 88 IIAComment
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True. It would run you like $250 including shipping, visa tx fees, import fee. Still too much for me to justify, but would be nice to add to the peg board.
1970 88 IIAComment
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If you are debating the flare tool and looking for ways to justify it, I would rent it from you.
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I was biefly thinking that it is a "must-have" tool, despite the fact that I haven't used my curret flaring tool in probably 5 years plus I already have copper-nickel brake lines, so they won't need replacing any time in the near future.
Still, what a great tool.--Mark
1973 SIII 109 RHD 2.5NA Diesel
0-54mph in just under 11.5 minutes
(9.7 minutes now that she's a 3-door).Comment
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Well, with some more effort I determined that LR piping is a bit of a hodge podge of flaring.
On new LR labeled pipes I’ve found both DOUBLE and “SAE CONVEX” which is the bubble flare Jeff referenced. It has a 45 degree backside instead of the modern 90 degree backside on a DIN flare and is indeed still being made, or at least appears on some Proline pieces.
Some LR piping even has a double flare on one side and this older bubble flare on the other.
Given what I’ve learned, I'll be going with copper-nickel, double flaring throughout, using t-fittings instead of the PDWA, and top routing the piping. But...that summary wasn't bullet proof and I don’t want anyone driving off the road because they only read the first post!
Tim – If I ever buy that tool, I’ll be sure to PM you. No rental fee required.
1970 88 IIAComment
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I was talking about brake lines with a nearby friend and sent him these links to my picassa web album.
Brake line reference pics from my '73 ser 3 Dual brake system
bulkhead
and old chassis
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