Pondering Series I - typical costs?

[rstl99]

Hi all,
Am casually looking for an older Series LR project to occupy some of my spare time post-retirement, something to tinker on as a long-term hobby project, get greasy/bloody knuckles on from time to time, re-use the things I learned when I tried to restore a SIIA 15 years ago (timing wasn't right, busy job, young kids - and I guess I didn't learn my lesson then :-).

Someone offered up a Series I apparently all original with very low miles. Haven't seen it, don't want to acquire a basket-case or rusted out specimen. But might be worth a look. I know that restoring one of these is not for the timid or those with empty pockets. My intent would not be to restore it to concours medal-winning shape, nor to turn it into a bush buggy. But get it back to a respectable early Series LR, able to drive on the side roads and trails near my weekend getaway.

I'm concerned about a couple of things: cost and availability of parts (used and new), since I understand the 86" was only produced for a couple of years.

What do you think a reasonable price would be for a low-mileage, seldom used Series I in need of mechanical attention (engine, brakes, wiring, exhaust, etc.), assuming the chassis and bulkhead aren't needy of massive repair or replacement (in which case I'd pass)? How much more can I be expected to pay (in parts because I'd do all the labor) to bring it back to respectable shape?

Thanks.

[gudjeon]

I do not have any definitive answers, but I can offer this;

There was changes to models, parts, and specs during the years of series 1 production so that my factor in to your decision. As a general rule, the older you go, the more they differ from what you know, based on familiarity of a IIA. The basic 2Litre engine plant in these can be rebuilt, but parts have to come from England and are very specialized, even over there. The rockers on the cam of these side valve engines are the weak spot as they show rapid wear, even on lower mileage examples (don't get me started about zinc additive old oils had that was supposed to prevent this). An even older 1600cc power plant is rarer and the 2 liter engine had siamese and later spreadbore versions.

I have a '57 ser1 and I rebuilt it as it was more complete example than I could find as a project than a ser2 example. (how weird is that?) I put in a more modern LR 2.25 plant and uprated to a newer t-case. The ser1 tranny has a smaller transmission layshaft, which are getting harder to find some parts for, but not impossible. The 2.25 is good as I make it my daily driver. It is not original, but makes it serviceable and has a hope of keeping up in modern traffic.

The trick is finding out what parts are common to what you can buy and what is still shared from ser2. The series 1 club forum is a good resource. I found the rear semi-floating axle bearings at Napa and seals from an industrial supplier. Wheel cylinders are the same, but, the master cylinder is different and made of expensive unobtanium. Retrofit kits for a later LR master cyl are available.

There is numerous more examples of what is the same as a ser2, what you can still get off the shelf, and what can be retrofitted if you want.

It is like learning about Land Rovers all over again rebuilding a ser1. It is a choice you will have to make to get what you want from this project.

To sum up, if its all there you have something to work with. Once bits are missing or other junk bodged onto it, then walk away.

[mongoswede]

in my mind a good bulkhead that needs no work or paint is worth $2000. A good frame that is solid, rust free, and needs no work is another $2000 given the cost and labor associated with swapping in a new galvanized unit. A complete truck where everything works and the work that is needed is only mechanical.....well a series IIA or III could easily fetch $7500+. Given the general rarity of a S1 I'd say you are easily in that ball park. That said, there are likely deals out there for good clean trucks that wont cost that much. These are my own mental numbers from the thousands of ads I've looked at the work I have done on my own trucks.

[westcoastkevin]

I am doing a Series 1 now.
The advice I got was."Keep all of your receipts........ but do not look at them for about 3 years".

If you already have the tools, the parts will not break the bank. Like Gudgeon, I found cross reference numbers for most of the seals and bearings here in the USA.

There is a Series one on Ebay that has 2 days left. Everythig looks to be there and the body and chassis look very straight.http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...K%3AMEWAX%3AIT

[leafsprung]

series ones are great, if restored to original condition most are prohibitively expensive (parts cost is so high that an original restoration costs more than the car is worth) Lots of parts are interchangeable as well so something that is not 100% original but done nicely using some later components is more feasible for most people.

[rstl99]

Thanks a lot guys, great insights based on experience, appreciate it!

Hadn't realized that SI's were _that_ different from SII's. Anyway, my experience with SII is dated, so it would be like starting from scratch again anyway, well, maybe not entirely, basic mechanicals are basic mechanicals Glad to know someone can retrofit 2.25 and gearbox into a SI (with work on propshafts I'm sure). Probably more of those around than the earlier varieties. And then there's the whole unleaded fuel and valve seat issue that pops to mind.

Indeed, this truck would have to be original and complete for me to consider it. Unless it's quite cheap and quasi-running. I know I don't have gumption nor $$ for frame and firewall replacement or major repairs (would be an occasion to learn how to weld, but not sure I want to go down that path), so that will likely be the deal-breaker for me. I can't see how a mid-50's LR could have survived with those components relatively intact...

"Keep all the receipts... but don't look at them" - yeah, there's a point there, for sure. And usually, in my experience, we usually look at receipts when it's time to sell, and that's when we usually get that OMG moment "I spent THAT much?!?, and I can only get THIS much for it?!?"

Anyway, I'll wait and see when/if I get a chance to see this truck and find out what the seller is looking to get for it. Then, depending on condition, I'll need to have a hard look in the mirror and ask myself if I really want to devote XYZ hours of my life bringing this puppy back to health, and if the journey (complete with bloody knuckles) is worth more to me than the destination. Especially given the other things on my post-retirement "bucket list"

Wish I had a barn and woodstove, and go through something like Jerome in his classic restoration book "Truck"! (he restored a 40's or 50's Dodge flathead pickup, with loads of lessons learned along the way, and interesting musings about all kinds of things along the way - strongly recommended).

Cheers all, I'll keep you posted about what happens on this one, if anything.

[gudjeon]

Just to add, the 2.25 does not need work on propshafts to fit. Everything will mount in original position. Just air hose, throttle linkage, new exhaust, fuel hose, radiator plumbing to be considered. Oh that, and a 2a transmission or a suffix 'A' bellhousing to mate up your ser1 tranny to the ser2 t-box. Clutch has to be made to work with whichever option you go with. It didn't stop me.

[rstl99]

Just to add, the 2.25 does not need work on propshafts to fit. Everything will mount in original position. Just air hose, throttle linkage, new exhaust, fuel hose, radiator plumbing to be considered. Oh that, and a 2a transmission or a suffix 'A' bellhousing to mate up your ser1 tranny to the ser2 t-box. Clutch has to be made to work with whichever option you go with. It didn't stop me.

Good to know, thanks Gudjeon. The owner told me the original engine wasn't firing on one cylinder, so looks like it needs some attention. Might eventually be easier for someone to fit a 2.25 (and with hardened seats, why not?).

Hope to hear back from seller and see some pictures of this rig. Kind of curious now...
Cheers.

[meatblanket]

Just to add, the 2.25 does not need work on propshafts to fit. Everything will mount in original position. Just air hose, throttle linkage, new exhaust, fuel hose, radiator plumbing to be considered. Oh that, and a 2a transmission or a suffix 'A' bellhousing to mate up your ser1 tranny to the ser2 t-box. Clutch has to be made to work with whichever option you go with. It didn't stop me.

Ah but you have an 88. It is not quite so easy with the shorter ones. The new engine architecture was the reason for extending the wheelbase by 2".

Still not a difficult swap in the shorter ones though.

[gudjeon]

Just to be pedantic, It was extended in the front and only by the 2" as you mentioned. This had to be done to fit in the wet sleeve diesel offered during 1957. This diesel was the starting point of the 2.25 design. The conversion can and has been done before. It was a popular period modification over the pond.

P.S. If things come to fruition and you need some pics on conversion to later LR stuff just PM away.

[J.McKelvey]

I have a 1951 80". it's great and I had a great time restoring it. The only problem is (as mentioned before) the parts are becoming harder and harder to find... I was lucky my father is handy on a metal lathe.

Besides the parts issue they are a lot of fun to restore and drive.


John

[meatblanket]

P.S. If things come to fruition and you need some pics on conversion to later LR stuff just PM away.

x2, I'm using a 2.5 na diesel in my 86 and can give you some tips if you go that route. It requires a simple engine mount mod on the right and use of an electric pusher fan, but otherwise no issues.

[rstl99]

x2, I'm using a 2.5 na diesel in my 86 and can give you some tips if you go that route. It requires a simple engine mount mod on the right and use of an electric pusher fan, but otherwise no issues.

Thanks, one reason I've always liked the notion of vintage LR ownership is the wealth of generous and informed advice out there.

Going diesel would be an interesting way to go if I was going to swap out the engine (no more carb, ignition issues). Owned a 110 with 2.5 na diesel at one time. Nice truck, probably shouldn't have sold it but times were different. Bit of a dog on hills and running through traffic, but I really like diesel of any variety. Own a 96 Dodge Ram with Cummins, and an 82 Benz 4cyl diesel sedan, and have owned a couple of diesel Land-Cruisers..

Anyway, hopefully I'll hear back from the seller this weekend (and get some pics). We're currently still at the early pre-negotiation dance, ie. "what are you prepared to pay" - "that depends on the condition, what are you hoping to get", etc.

[gudjeon]

There should be no mod necessary (could have done to use what was had) to mount the 2.25. I even had the bolt on mount alrady on the frame to use the transfer case mountings from the ser2 and "uprated" my ser1.

As far as price, if you are selling nationally or globally, then it can fetch a bit. Selling to a local market, not so much.

[rstl99]

I have a 1951 80". it's great and I had a great time restoring it. The only problem is (as mentioned before) the parts are becoming harder and harder to find... I was lucky my father is handy on a metal lathe.

Besides the parts issue they are a lot of fun to restore and drive.
John

Thanks John.
Indeed, knowing someone handy on a lathe WOULD be most handy from time to time!!
I have a feeling that if I end up getting a Series, it will be my opportunity to finally learn how to weld!! Necessity is the mother of invention, as they say...
Enjoy your Series I!