looking at a III - any advice?

[NickDawson]

Hey Guys
I've been told that that a lot of people spend the rest of their lives looking for their true auto love...
I think I've found a chance to reunite with mine and could use some advice

I've found a local listing that feels perfect. 1974 Series III, RHD in (reported) good mechanical condition. I would love some advice for what I should look at when I go test drive it this weekend.

I first found roversnorth (And joined the old forums) in 1996 before my first disco (94 SE ). I was in HS/college in those days and didn't have a budget for any modifications. But I did attend rallies and took that truck through some pretty extreme situations. My friends called it the "worst lemon ever" - to me, it was true love.

I'm driving a sedan these days but have always said that my dream would be to find an "old school rover" that I could use as a 4x4 and Sunday drive. Discos seem to hold an obscene value which put them out of a 3rd card price range, and most series vehicles I saw were someone's over priced problem. I drive a AWD car today and cannot imagine being without it during the occasional snow in Virginia or even on the bad roads we take to fly fish & ski. So to complete the dream - what I really want is an old rover that is as utilitarian as it is fun. I wanted to find something that was reliable enough to really use as a truck on weekends, in snow, etc but could also be a project and get me back into the the Rover world.

I've been catching up on old times and have particularly enjoyed this thread on advice for a IIa
http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6342
I've also enjoyed the Rover **** here
http://www.roversnorth.com/forums/sh...?t=4702&page=2

Here are the specs for the 1974 III I'm considering

• original 2.6l diesel
• good paint (not sure if its original)
• mild rust under the driver's door - none under passengers
• no frame or body rust
• hard top/ roof rack/ brush guard
• RDH - (not a problem for me, in fact a plus)
• stuck odometer on 99K miles (seller estimates that is close)
• Seller states that there is an electrical problem that requires jumping the starting solenoid, but starts right up

They are asking $6,400

First question - is that reasonable? It seems low to me based on what I have seen. Then again, this truck is mostly original and has been used

#2 - what should I look for when I test drive?
I have the general working knowledge of engines that comes with being male, but otherwise have never done any mechanical work. I want something to learn on, but not from scratch. For instance, I think I can change that solenoid, but I intend to use this thing most weekends, so I'm not looking for a major mechanical project.

#3 - did the IIIs have locking center diffs? Sounds silly but I cannot find anything online about the transfer case on these guys


Long winded, I know but I'd love to know what this group of experts thinks about taking this truck on as a novice project?


Thanks!
-N

[superstator]

No such thing as an original 2.6 diesel that I know of. 2.5 came along much later, but a '74 should have a 2.25. Take any pictures of the engine compartment?

[NickDawson]

No such thing as an original 2.6 diesel that I know of. 2.5 came along much later, but a '74 should have a 2.25. Take any pictures of the engine compartment?

Thanks - glad you said that. Reviewed the ad and it says 2.5L - going to ask if its original (perhaps he rounded? )
Engine (and other) pic(s) attached

[Jeff Aronson]

Here are some thoughts for you:

Here are the specs for the 1974 III I'm considering

* original 2.6l diesel
* good paint (not sure if its original)
* mild rust under the driver's door - none under passengers
* no frame or body rust
* hard top/ roof rack/ brush guard
* RDH - (not a problem for me, in fact a plus)
* stuck odometer on 99K miles (seller estimates that is close)
* Seller states that there is an electrical problem that requires jumping the starting solenoid, but starts right up

They are asking $6,400

In 1974, Land Rover did not make a 2.6L diesel. They did make a 2.6 L petrol, but its design is actually older than the far more common 2.25 L petrol and diesel. The 2.6 has nice torque but is not really great for long distance drives over high mileage. It appeared for only 2 years in the official US marketplace in the '60's, and Rover pulled it from this market. So either your seller's information is wrong, or it's not a Land Rover engine [someone else's diesel, which is a common swap in England], or it's a gas engine. Find out because it tells you a lot about the seller and his/her knowledge of the Rover.

The front of your car does not have a Series III grill. You have a Defender-style front radiator panel on your car, which means you might have a 2.5 diesel as the engine in that car. The reason for the different front might be that the engine required more clearance that was possible with the Series III setup? Or it just might be someone's idea of a customization?

Good paint is fun and appealing but meaningless in terms of whether a car is a "good value." There were not many choices of color for Land Rovers in 1974. The bright red of the truck in the photos is not original.

Also, the top on your vehicle has a common bodge in UK Rovers. Vehicle taxes in the UK are lower if the vehicle is "commercial." One criterion is that the rear sides must be solid, with no windows, to imply passengers in the rear. So your truck came with solid sides and after its registration, someone installed some aftermarket sliding windows.

The door frames on Series Rvers are steel; the outer skins are aluminum. Rust on the frames is not uncommon. Tne more important place to look is the post where the door hinges attach. Those are steel and they can rust.

Frames rust from the inside out. The only way to check for rust is to take a hammer and screwdriver, crawl underneath the car, and start poking hard. You cannot use a photo or the word of the seller. The bodies hardly ever rust because only the door posts and front radiator panel are steel. The rest is aluminum or galvanized capping.

The photos you've posted show what looks to be door post rust on the front. The roof rack is neat but I hope you don't have to go into parking garages with it. The brush guard will be a help if you have a lot of deer in your area [don't ask me how I know].

An odometer does not get "stuck" at a certain mileage. It is broken and not working. Land Rover speedometers can be repaired, however. The mileage is truthfully unknown, as you don't know the history of the Rover.

For example, Series III Rovers came with black door panels; this truck has none. The middle seat has been removed and you have an old Series II-A seat cushion in the photo. So it's led an interesting life, that may include more than 99,000 miles of driving.

Diesels can have very long engine lives IF they have been well maintained - regular oil, filter, fuel filter, injector changes and care. Diesels require special tools and additional knowledge. They're terrific for off road because they produce a lot of torque at low rpm. They're great for stationary applications because they do not have ignition systems like cars and can run all day on smaller amounts of fuel. That said, they're harder and more costly to repair than conventional gas engines.

Old technology diesels are noisier and rougher than the Rover gas engines. You will hear and see the difference when you drive the car.

RHD will be a problem only if you plan on passing someone, an unlikely occurrence in an old Land Rover diesel, and at toll booths, etc.

You do not want to pay for the replacement of solenoid on a diesel starter. Because diesels have 18/20:1 compression ratios compared to the Rover petrol engine at 7:1 or 8:1. their batteries and starters require more power. And the problem may be with the starter instead. I would recommend making the seller take care of this first.

#2 - what should I look for when I test drive?
I have the general working knowledge of engines that comes with being male, but otherwise have never done any mechanical work. I want something to learn on, but not from scratch. For instance, I think I can change that solenoid, but I intend to use this thing most weekends, so I'm not looking for a major mechanical project.



Then I would recommend you look for a Rover with a more conentional engine setup than this diesel. There's a reason that diesel mechanics earn more and require more training than their gas engine counterparts. If you are comfortable with repairing and maintaining a diesel, then you're more skilled than you give youself credit for.

And until you rap away at the frame, you won't know the condition of the metal that supports the car.

As for the test drive, you want the car to start quickly, stop without pulling, and without any tugs coming through the steering wheel. A diesel Land Rover will have lots of vibration. You should make certain that the car will remain in the selected gear, and not pop out. So accelerate hard and then release the accelerator suddenly; if the car pops out of gear, then you'll need a transmission repair for the bad synchromesh rings. You'll want to put the car in 4wd high range and low range; have the owner show you how.

#3 - did the IIIs have locking center diffs? Sounds silly but I cannot find anything online about the transfer case on these guys

No, Series III did not have locking differentials installed by Land Rover.

Lastly, and most importantly, Virginia is blessed with the oldest active Land Rover club in the US, the ROAV. You absolutely, positively, want to contact them for members in the Richmond area to accompany you to look at and assess any Land Rover. They're hugely knowledgeable and friendly, and you'll be less likely to make a mistake if you get their help. Also, they're bound to know of other Rovers for sale in case this one is not right for you.

Welcome back the Land Rover community!

Jeff

[NickDawson]

Jeff - I cannot thank you enough for your reply.
It was exactly the right amount of pragmatic realism that I needed to ground me. I've been pretty excited about this truck since I saw the ad and needed this info before I went to look at it.

I appreciate your breakdown of the seller's bullet points.

Of chief concern is the engine and front end - I want to know the history there. I'm torn between the desire to get back into Rover World and the need for a good weekend truck. Frankly maybe they are not exclusive - while I'd love a classic Rover, I'm ok with something that runs well and may not be perfect as long as it can get me to the fly fishing enclaves of VA

How bad would it be if the engine was a replacement? And for that matter - what about the strange front end replacement? Maybe in a few years I'll restore it to prime glory...but does it pose mechanical, off-road or other problems?

Your point on the paint is well taken - lipstick on a pig? Also the aftermarket windows are a concern- need to see how well they were sealed and installed. On the other hand the history of this truck deepens


The "stuck" odometer raises a red flag for me too. Wonder if that has anything to do with a replaced engine.... will inquire.

You do not want to pay for the replacement of solenoid on a diesel starter. Because diesels have 18/20:1 compression ratios compared to the Rover petrol engine at 7:1 or 8:1.

The fact that I only vaguely understand this means I may be over my head .... Seller is suggesting that he would charge $6,900 with the solenoid fixed. As a price point - should I take him up on that (or knock more off)? I feel like its an easy part to replace- but are they hard to find?

#2 - thanks for the test drive tips!
Been picking the brain of every diesel person I know ... keep hearing starting/stopping the engine tells a lot.

#3 - thanks for the info on the diffs

Again, this will give away how little I know about series trucks - but what was the 4wd setup on the IIIs? Is it all time 4wd, or partial? I've seen pics that show a 2nd shifter - assume thats at least high/low


Thanks again everyone - what a great community!

____
edited to add: I remember ROVA well - I need to dig up the photos from the rallies I went to with my disco. Long story short, don't cross the James River in a Disco if you arn't prepared to destroy your steering system and get pulled off a rock by a unimog... oh, and it was AWESOME!

[gudjeon]

Howdy,

I'll throw in my 2 cents worth of advice. Looking at the pics this vehicle appears to be somewhat of a "bitsa". Judging from the corrosion of the door frames, I would be very suspect of the frame. Of course, being a bit of a mongrel, the chassis may have been repaired/replaced. Personally, there is a steep learning curve with repairing a new-to-you Rover, and I would opt for the simpler petrol model to cut your teeth on.

A Rover hybrid made with various parts is not necessarily a bad thing. This fact makes it even more important that a good Rover Whisperer person have a look at it with you. Not only do you need to make sure mods are not bodges, you will need to know the background of the differing components so you can properly carry out repairs and get the correct parts.

If it were me, I would keep looking. I have found it far easier to rebuild something that has just been ravaged by time over one ravaged by previous owner(s). Series Land Rovers are getting more difficult to find in the latter category.

Jon

[Jeff Aronson]

You're quite welcome. We've all shared your enthusiasm for a vehicle. I can still remember "the one that got away" before I bought one of my current Series Rovers, the QE I.

How bad would it be if the engine was a replacement? And for that matter - what about the strange front end replacement? Maybe in a few years I'll restore it to prime glory...but does it pose mechanical, off-road or other problems?

It's not bad that the engine might be a replacement, but there are diesels in Rovers for which parts are very hard to source in the US. You need to know if the engine is a genuine Land Rover one [the 2.5 diesel] or another brand that is the same size. Rovers North can help you with this once you get the specific information from the seller. The other problem with the replacement is when and where it was made. If it was done in the UK, then how are you going to know much about its service history? If it was done by the seller, that would be better for you.

The front end issue only implies that the radiator needed to be moved forward, as was done on the Land Rover 90/110/Defender models, to accommodate the needs for larger engines and extra cooling. But if the seller is trying to push its originality because of its RHD, then read Jon's wose comments again about a "bitsa." If you need to source the bits in the future, it can be hard when you don't know what they are.

Your point on the paint is well taken - lipstick on a pig? Also the aftermarket windows are a concern- need to see how well they were sealed and installed.

The installation is a common thing on UK vehicles, and factory windows on Rovers can leak. To me, it was more of an indication that you are not getting a very original vehicle. If the seller implied otherwise to you, then I would say "beware."


The "stuck" odometer raises a red flag for me too. Wonder if that has anything to do with a replaced engine.... will inquire.

Maybe, but more likely it's just an indication of how the owner cared about his Rover. I've gone through 3 speedometers in the 500,000 miles on my Rover and I've always sought to repair/replace them rapidly so I can keep up with maintenance needs.

As for the price increase for a repaired solenoid, I would reject it and respectfully say that a $6,000 + Rover that does not start on the key is not ready for sale. It should be repaired and functional when you go to test drive it. A bad solenoid - assuming you have a Rover starter - is not too serious, but it may NOT be the solenoid. It might be the starter itself. Often on older vehicles, the solenoid gets "sticky" from a lack of use but equally possible is that the solenoid and starter are of the same age, and that both need replacement.

Series III Rovers had part-time 4wd. The cars either have locking front hubs, that must be turned before engaging 4wd, or they have permanent hubs that are always ready for 4ed drive engagement.

Normal operation is in 2wd, high range. If you want to engage 4wd while underway, just push down on the yellow knobbed lever. There are no 4wd drive indicator lights on a Rover. To disengage, you must stop the car, depress the clutch, pull the red lever all the way back [you'll hear a "pop" as the yellow lever disengages], and then push it all the way forward. Now you are in 2wd, high range again.

To engage 4wd low range, come to a stop, depress the clutch, pull the red lever back, and you are now in low range. You'll find that you can walk faster than the car will crawl - especially a diesel - when you're in low range. Top speed in low range is about 25 mph.

In all cases ,the gearshift operates as usual, whether you're in high range or low range.

Lastly, take Jon's advice and contact the club to find yourself a guardian angel to accompany you on looking at a Land Rover.

Best wishes,

Jeff

[NickDawson]

WOW - thanks gang for the very detailed and helpful posts!

This thread is really helpful as I plan my test drive.

I do not want to betray any trusts - but I am going to share the correspondence below. I get the impression that most rover owners either know what they are talking about or are buying a pedigree - the note below inspires some confidence and speaks to Jeff A's points above.

However, it also underscores some of the more grounded points - not sure I can ever know the real history (and how much does that matter to me, beyond condition?). Not sure I can know the mileage on the engine (and on a diesel whats 40k give or take )

Yes, the 2.5L diesel is an engine swap for that truck. However, it is a Land Rover diesel engine. I am a firm believer in keeping any engine swaps within the manufacturer. This swap was performed in England, and I imported the truck from there. Note the English license plates that I kept on the truck. Diesel engines are quite desirable in these trucks due to the simplicity, low end torque, and good gas mileage. It climbs like a mountain goat! Also, the hood and grill are from a mid-80's Land Rover Defender (as is the engine). The overdrive is also an optional upgrade. With the overdrive, top speed is between 50-55mph (no speed demons here!).

Regarding the 4wd system - thanks very much again Jeff for the details. That helps a lot, particularly in terms of knowing how to test drive.

I have some Rover contacts here in Richmond that have offered to come with me, I think it will be well worth a paid lunch at the College Deli in Willimasburg and beers once home for them

Finally - Overdrive, what do I need to know?

Again, thanks so much guys... these posts have made me even more eager but also a more educated buyer.

[leafsprung]

Beware the british market land rovers. I would look at as many other rovers as you can before buying.

[SafeAirOne]

....I would opt for the simpler petrol model to cut your teeth on.

Why is a petrol-powered Series Rover simpler than a diesel? Having driven both, I find it the other way 'round. Certainly a diesel donkey...well the 2.5 anyhow...is a less-complex engine than the 2.25p. No coil, points, condensor, mechanical advance, vacuum advance, ignition timing, distributor, rotor, distributor cap, plug wires, coil wire, plugs and moisture to worry about. Give 'em air and fuel and they'll go forever (providing that you change the oil religiously).

Fear the rust, not the diesel fuel .

I've always thought that this site had a pretty good checklist of things to look for when buying a Series Rover.