a non stater

[NickDawson]

hey gang,
Long time no chat. I've been enjoying catching up on the threads this morning.
Graduate school and full time work has pretty much killed my extracurricular activities including driving and maintaining my rover

However, by the looks of the clouds I have about an hour before our first winter storm rolls in. Seems like a good time to takle my starter issue, right?

Over the summer, when I was still driving the rover on the weekends, occasionally when I turned the key, it would just click. Usually the 2nd or 3rd turn would get it going. Now, it only clicks...nothing.

It's a new starter, less than a year old. Some may remember that i have a funky 2.5L engine where just enough is different from the 2.25 to be substantially annoying. The starter is one of those differences. I had to order my from the UK. These starters have the advantage of being a slightly more modern design with an integral solenoid. They have the disadvantage of being too unknown for any of the local rebuilding shops I took my last one to.

I brushed up on other posts about starters (pun marginally intended) and have a few ideas of things to check:

• All the wires and ground connection
• battery condition and voltage
• whack it with a hammer (working solo today, can I hit it and then try and start it? Or does it have to be when someone is turning the key?)
• jumping the positive....

It's the last one that has me a bit worried. What's the procedure there? Is it as simple as putting the truck in neutral and using a suitable wire (jumper cable)? I guess my concern is being under the truck and trying to start it. I'll chock the wheels and put the transmission and transfer case in neutral. Do I want the key on or off? I'm assuming if off, the starter may spin up, but the engine won't start since there's no power to the plugs, etc... is that the best way to test, or do I want the ignition engaged?

Any other tips or thoughts?

edited to add:
Just had a duh moment... make the connection at the battery, not the starter!

[NickDawson]

well that was quick... unfortunately I didn't get very far.

I'd forgotten how the starter is really wedged in there on this engine. There's no real way to take a whack at it, but I was able to tap it a bit with a hammer. Doubt it did anything.

I'm getting a solid 12v at the battery and, with the ignition on, at the ignition terminal on the solenoid. When I jump the solenoid (connect the positive directly to the battery) the motor spins, but it's not engaged with the fly wheel. It sounds like...well... an electric motor spinning freely. I tried turning the key while it spun, didn't make a difference.

So, does that suggest the solenoid is stuck somehow? It still makes a click when you turn the key (and another click when you release the key).

Any thoughts before I pull it off (which involves dropping the exhaust)?

[albersj51]

Regarding bullet 3: on another car, I just tapped it, got in, and it started up.

[stomper]

if I'm not mistaken, I think you are suppost to have 14.4 volts from the battery to the starter, or something higher than 12 volts. You may not be getting enough juice to throw out the bendix to the flywheel.

Charge your battery, or if you have a really nice battery charger, there will be a 225volt start charge switch for jump starting a vehicle. Short of this, there may be grease or something gumming up the bendix, that prevents the starter dog from engaging the flywheel.

[NickDawson]

Thanks Stomper!
You are correct about the voltage. I tried jumping it from another car, got a solid 14.6v, but it didn't make a difference.

I'll pull it and see if I can unjam the bendix (which will also be the name of my band, should I ever start one)

[SafeAirOne]

You say you checked the grounds. I'm presuming that you cleaned the contact surfaces between the braided starter grounding strap and the starter and the strap and the engine block? How about the battery grounding wire and the chassis? The battery ground terminal on the battery? Finally both ends of the chassis-to-block grounding strap?

You have the classis symptoms of a poorly conductive circuit that is sufficient to operate the low-drain stuff but not the high-demand stuff.

I had the same symptoms on a known-good starter and it turned out to be a bad battery cable-to-chassis ground. Your meter will read 12v everywhere, all day long for troubleshooting, but when you turn the key, nothing but a click.

[NickDawson]

You say you checked the grounds.

I'll be more specific in this reply - and it sounds like I have some more checking to do.

This starter grounds to the block where it connects. There's not actually a ground strap.

I did check the positive connection and cleaned the connector - it's still virtually brand new and shiny.

I started to get into the process of pulling the stater, which will also involve dropping the exhaust to get to the top bolt... and the snow started coming down too hard. Without a garage, it'll have to wait a few days

[stomper]

mark went into more detail than i could on my iphone. You have a few possible problems. Do you get 14.6 volts at your battery? if not, your battery needs to be trickle charged. If you are getting 14.6 volts at the battery, and 12 volts at the starter, you have a corroded wire or ground strap or something. With a known 14.6 volts from a battery, and a jumper cable to your starter, it should start. you just aren't getting enough electricity to the starter to throw the selinoid and the bendix.

[printjunky]

Gonna hafta agree with Mark. I would dissasseble ALL of your ground connections, clean the points of connection to bare metal and reassemble them. With my tendency to jump to the most complex comclusion, it took me a long time to learn this lesson, but the vast majority of auto electrical problems are conductivity problems - too little (bad grounds/connections) or too much (a short).

I was having all kinds of weird electrical behaviors. After way more complex troubleshooting, I finally gave in and restored my connections, as well as adding additional grounding. For example i have a ground from one of the starter mounting bolts to the same motor mount that is connected to the negative side of the battery (The starter's electrical connection to the block can have other variables, like corrosion, and how well the block itself is grounded), I also doubled my chassis to block grounds. Since then not a single electrical ghost haunting me. (well, none that weren't easily traceable to a broken wire or bad lamp socket, etc.)

[NickDawson]

ah, you guys mean the grounds for the block to the frame, etc ...
I'll give them all a good going over once the sleet stops. Thanks!

To clarify my voltage posts - I get 14.6 at the positive on the starter WHEN I connect jumpers to another running vehicle. My battery is only putting out about 12v, likely owed to not driving too much in the last few months. Jumping from another vehicle doesnt help the problem at all (which would still be the case if the grounds were bad, right?)

[canyonero]

My problems went on for months with me jumping it, cleaning up any ground I could find, etc. After all that it was the simple option of new battery cables, both to the solenoid and ground to the engine block. New cables, end of problem. (Although I'm sure the newly clean grounds help a great deal too.)

[knac1234]

I agree with grounds. My starter was barely working at all. Needed a new battery....still no luck. Finally, installed a ground wire directly from the starter to the battery.....end of problem. Of course, then the starter died, so replaced it with a hi torque one during my "resto". Starts quickly and mostly the first time, every time now.


Julian

[SafeAirOne]

Jumping from another vehicle doesnt help the problem at all (which would still be the case if the grounds were bad, right?)

No, not at all. Presuming, of course, that you're hooking up the jumper cables to your batery. Your battery is still the starting and ending point for every electron's journey to the starter and back. You're not eliminating/bypassing the wiring at all that way.

PS--Your starter should have a ground strap from the starter brace bolt (or nut, I cant remember which) on the back of the starter to the stud sticking out of the 2.5 block nearby, ensuring a good ground path. Grounding through the mounting bolts/stud is probably good enough, but you can't be sure without the strap.

Jumping HAS eliminated an insufficient battery as a possible casue, though....

[NickDawson]

Thanks guys! Looking forward to the thaw so I can go over the cables and grounds.

I was laying in bed thinking about this though. When I jump with an other car, I put the positive to the positive cable on the batter and the negative right to the block on my rover.

Assuming the positive cable from the battery to the starter is good, wouldn't that rule out a bad ground?

[SalemRover]

Thanks guys! Looking forward to the thaw so I can go over the cables and grounds.

I was laying in bed thinking about this though. When I jump with an other car, I put the positive to the positive cable on the batter and the negative right to the block on my rover.

Assuming the positive cable from the battery to the starter is good, wouldn't that rule out a bad ground?

It is also entirely possible to have a weak connection between the positive cable and the battery terminal. That would give you 12v for all your electrics, but would not be able to draw the amperage a starter would need.

-Jason