Restored Series III 109 2.25 Won't Restart

[mjones1700]

Here is where I'm at with my original problem. Still won't start or even hit once. The starter turning the engine well (battery still holding up after a 1,000 cranks). The open points with the ignition on has 12 volts from hot side to frame and across the open points. However, I still can't see a spark when I pull a plug wire off and hold it over a frame bolt. I still see fuel being pumped and smell gas after trying to start it.

So, were do I go from here and what is the first part to replace? I have new plugs and they are gaped correctly. The pug wires are about 8 years old but look good and no arcing. A new coil? A new condenser? Why would something like this go out just with prolonged sitting? Thanks in advanced.

[jonnyc]

OK, I don't want to be offensive here, but I haven't read the word "rotor" here anywhere. I went back and didn't see it anywhere. Has that been checked?

[mjones1700]

You're not being offensive. I put a new rotor on a couple of years before the restore, 4-5 years ago. I did lightly touch up the contact points the other day, after it wasn't starting, on the edge and top with some fine sand paper to make the brass look bright. Do I need to replace it? I had replaced the dist cap about the same time. The contacts look good with one with a little black, which I also lightly touched up (after it wasn't starting not before).

Now years ago, it wouldn't start and I even drained the battery trying (I was far off the beaten path). Eventually had to get it towed. A few days later it started right up and I assumed it was flooded. I can't imagine that now.

[SafeAirOne]

If you haven't already done it, Replace the condensor. These can go bad just sitting and people have even been receiving bad ones right out of the box.

This is really a basic system and to know how it operates means you know how to fix it.

I know TeriAnn went over theory of operation, but please indulge me while I review (apologies for the L-E-N-G-T-H-Y post):

PRIMARY CIRCUIT:

Inside the coil, there are 2 separate wires 'coiled' around some sort of a core; there's a 'primary' coil circuit, which is powered by 12 volts from the tiny white wire from the ignition switch, and a fat 'secondary' circuit wire which delivers 20,000 volts of electricity to the distributor, where it gets 'distributed' to the different spark plugs. Now, where did that 20,000 volts come from??

Well that's what the coil is for--It produces 20,000 volts from 12 volts. That's the coil's only job. How does it do this? Remember those 2 separate wires coiled around a core in the coil? Well, when you send 12 volts through the primary coil windings then to ground, it builds up an electromagnetic force field that surrounds both the primary and secondary circuit in the coil. Still, that doesn't make 20,000 come out of the seconday coil...that is until you suddenly cut off the 12 volts of power to the primary circuit by disconnecting the ground.

When you suddenly chop the 12 volts of power to the primary coil winding, the electromagnetic field very suddenly collapses. This collapsing magnetic field passes by the secondary coil windings, creating electricity. Don't ask me how--It's been a long time since high-school electricity class--but it does generate electricity and the amouunt of voltage generated in the secondary circuit and sent on to the spark plugs is determined by several factors such as the number of windings in each coil circuit and the strength of the electromagnetic field, etc.

So, we know that turining on and off the electricity to the primary circuit is what generates the electricity in the secondary circuit inside the coil and then on to the spark plugs, but how does the electricity in the primary circuit get turned on and off? Well, that's the one and only function of the 'breaker points' or just 'points'.

As the name suggests, the breaker points 'break' the 12-volt electrical path from the primary circuit on the coil and ground, causing the electromagnetic force field inside the coil to collapse at just the right moment. We won't go into ignition timing here, but know that when you adjust the ignition timing, you are adjusting the moment at which the breaker points begin to open, breaking that electrical path.

So...it sounds simple enough--just turn on and off the electricity to the primary circuit and inside the coil, you'll generate huge voltages in the secondary circuit which will be sent off to the spark plugs, right? Well, there's only one problem with that whole thing. When you suddenly open up the primary circuit with the breaker points, the electricity will want to keep flowing. So much so, that it'll jump the gap created when the breaker points open up and will spark across the two open contacts, effectively keeping electricity flowing through the circuit.

Now if the 12-volt primary circuit needs to be switched cleanly and completely off in order to create the 20,000 volts in the secondary circuit, we obviously can't have electricity jumping the gap across the open breaker points. So what are we going to do to stop this arcing? The answer lies in the most commonly defective component in a points-type ignition system: The condenser.

In order to stop the electricity from jumping the gap when you open the breaker points, the electricity will, very briefly, need a path that appears easier to travel through than the air gap between the opening contacts of the points. So...as soon as the breaker points start opening, the electricity sees an 'easier' path to travel and heads over to the condenser. The condenser acts as sort of an electrical 'sponge', soaking up the electricity till it is full, then the flow of electricity stops, since there is no more 'capacity' left for it in the condenser (AKA 'capacitor'). By the time the electricity realizes there's no place left to go, it's too late--it doesn't have enough energy to spark across the gap in the now-open breaker points.

So what if the condenser is bad or if there's some unintended ground in the primary circuit or if the points don't open up or close up properly? In other words, what if there is something causing the circuit to either stay energized or to not energize in the first place?

Well the end result is that the primary circuit inside the coil will never ever turn off and on and therefore the electromagnetic field will never build and collapse inside the coil and as a result, the secondary circuit inside the coil will never get energized with the 20,000 volts and the fat secondary wire will never get energized and your spark plugs will never spark and your engine will never start.



SECONDARY CIRCUIT:

OK...so now everything's hunky-dory in the primary circuit. 12 volts is flowing when it should and stopping where it should, turing on and off like a champ, sending 20,000-volt pulses down the secondary wire like there's no tomorrow. Still you have no spark at the plugs, you say?

Well, presuming the coil is good, there will be 20,000 volts available at the end of the fat wire that comes out of the coil and goes into the center of the distributor cap every time the breaker points open up. What happens to that 20,000 volts once it hits the center post of the distributor cap?

Well, that 20,000 volts travels down the fat wire from the coil to a spring-loaded electrical contact on the underside center of the distributor cap. That spring-loaded contact rides on top of a brass strip on the rotor and causes the strip to become energized with 20,000 volts every time the points open up. But how does that 20,000 volts get to each spark plug?

As the name implies, the rotor rotates in sync with the pistons and the opening and closing of the points so that when the 20,000 volt pulse comes out of the coil, the brass strip on the top of the rotor is pointing to to one of 4 contacts on the circumfrence of the underside of the distributor cap. These contacts are the electrical path through the distributor cap for the 4 spark plug wires, so the 20,000 volt jolt goes from the coil, through the distributor cap to the rotor and then is 'distributed' to whatever spark plug wire the rotor is pointing to, then on to the respective spark plug.

This whole process is timed to deliver the 20,000 volt pulse every time the contact on the rotor points to one of the plug wire contacts on the underside of the distributor cap.



And so there it is. That's all the information anyone needs to tackle any "no-spark" gripes encountered on any 2.25 petrol engine. The only thing that's left is where to put the voltmeter and ohm meter leads when you're looking for electricity or continuity, but that's something for another day...

[SafeAirOne]

To further breach forum etiquette, I'll follow my super-long reply with another consecutive reply from me...


Here's a link to a "no-spark' troubleshooting flowchart I made up a minute ago. Apologies for the fact that I did it on one of those "free flowcharts!" websites: http://www.selectsmart.com/commentary/blog.php?m=2327


If anyone sees any errors or omissions, let me know and I'll try to fix it.

[mjones1700]

To further breach forum etiquette, I'll follow my super-long reply with another consecutive reply from me...


Here's a link to a "no-spark' troubleshooting flowchart I made up a minute ago. Apologies for the fact that I did it on one of those "free flowcharts!" websites: http://www.selectsmart.com/commentary/blog.php?m=2327


If anyone sees any errors or omissions, let me know and I'll try to fix it.

Hey, that flow chart is a work of art. Makes perfect sense and I see why I'm at the "replace the condenser" point. I certainly understand the science of electricity and etc. but I didn't know a few nuisances such as the reason for the break points was that when the 12 volt circuit is suddenly broken (points open) that it causes the cascade of discharge of the stored high voltage.

I will keep you posted and thanks again.

[stomper]

Thank you Mr. Wizzard! That was an excellent summary, and makes a lot of sense! Especially from someone who operates a diesel!

[SafeAirOne]

Thank you Mr. Wizzard! That was an excellent summary, and makes a lot of sense! Especially from someone who operates a diesel!

Ha!--Yeah. The BEST solution is to get rid of the distributor and spark plugs altogether!

[mjones1700]

Ha!--Yeah. The BEST solution is to get rid of the distributor and spark plugs altogether!

I know that you are talking about going diesel, however on that same thought (getting rid of points at least) what do you think about the "electronic ignition" system that British-Pacific was selling as a replacement to the original point system?

[jonnyc]

I used the Crane Fireball system. It is really a great reliability upgrade.

[SafeAirOne]

I can't really comment on electronic ignition systems for the series. I've never owned one, though plenty of folks on this board have them and I'm sure they'll let you know...

[nate6472]

Agreed. I replace the coil today. If that does not work, the condenser. Then points. I hope to not deal with the points since it has been a long time since I adjusted the gap (and it is so hot out !)

[mjones1700]

I just ordered condenser and coil. I was just thinking. I was doing a lot of arc wielding on the frame and body during the 2 year restore. The battery was disconnected and I placed my wield ground as close as I could to my hot tip, but could that ever fry a coil or other electronics?

[SafeAirOne]

The battery was disconnected and I placed my wield ground as close as I could to my hot tip, but could that ever fry a coil or other electronics?

My two replies would be "I doubt it" and "other electronics??".

[mjones1700]

My two replies would be "I doubt it" and "other electronics??".

I stand corrected . . . "electricals"