Repower SIII 109 with 200TDI?

[bullstanky]

My '75 SIII 109 came to me with a Ford diesel in it from a '71 Ford Transit that runs really well, gets relatively good mileage, can run on bio-diesel blends if I want to, and is fed by a fairly common minimec injection pump. I don't foresee any real problems in the near future with the engine--it's just a simple as they come.

But while many folks swapped out the 2.25 petrol engines in their 88's for Ford Transit diesels and found them up to the task, this engine doesn't quite give me the umph I'm looking for in my 109. I had a Fairey OD installed that made a big difference in my ability to maintain speed going up steep hills and the like, but at the end of the day, while the engine is fine off-road and in town at speeds of 60mph and below, I just would like a little more get up and go.

So, I'm thinking about swapping in a 200TDI and R380 gearbox like the one's available in this listing on ebay - http://www.ebay.com/itm/390358278661...84.m1438.l2649

Any red flags with this idea or things I should look out for? What should my expectations be as far as performance gains? Will I have to change the gear ratios in the front or rear diffs (front is a rover type, rear is a salisbury, no idea what the current ratios are or if lockers are installed)?

And what do you think a transit diesel w/ 4-speed & Fairey OD is worth these days to someone looking to do a diesel swap for their 88? The faiery OD cost me $800 alone, so maybe I should take it off and sell it separately?

[o2batsea]

David's been selling import tdis for a while. His main business is LandCruisers but does Land Rover work as well. Have not heard anything bad about him or any of his dealings. He is on D-90.com as atlcruiser.

If you go with the 200Tdi you'll be very happy with the performance. There are some gotchas that will make the install a bit more problematic in some circumstances. First off is it a RHD or LHD 109? If it's RHD you are in the pink as there will be no turbo clearance issue to speak of. If it's LHD, then you are in a pickle. You must do something to relocate the turbo if it has a Disco manifold. If it has a Defender manifold you are again, golden because the turbo mounts higher up. My solution is a little different. I am flipping the turbo around 180, and reclocking the center section. This puts the exhaust toward the front like a 300 tdi.
The kit David is selling comes pretty much complete and I think you can use the Series transfer case if you use the Ashcroft kit here for an additional 360 UKP but you wind up with some geometry issues cz it moves the transfer case back 4 inches. That means either moving the engine forward those 4 inches or having new prop shafts done along with clearancing the transmission cross member.
The best option for fitment is to buy the 200tdi, the Ashcroft "Stumpy" R380 (about 2K delivered) rework an LT230 to be part time 4WD and badda bing dunny done. You'll probably want to change the handbrake to the XEng X brake transmission disc instead of the LT230 drum as the linkage from Series to the LT230 is not compatible.
Anyway, maybe a pre OBD2 300 tdi is a better choice due to the fitment issues. They are more available and finding things like the manifolds is way easier than the 200tdi. They are virtually the same engine. The 300 will need new mounts welded in.
One other area of concern will be your diffs. With 4.57 final drive, you will wind out the diesel pretty quick, so you might want to swap in a RRC or Disco diff in front and change the ring and pinion in the rear for a better cruising speed.
No matter how you slice it this is major surgery with its associated Big Bill. Be sure you want to bite the apple before taking it from the tree.

[SafeAirOne]

Didn't some company in the UK make an elbow that bolted in between the exhaust manifold and the turbo on Disco 200Tdi's that swung the turbo up and out of the way of the LHD steering components? I'm pretty sure I've seen it...the hard part will be re-finding it on the net...

[o2batsea]

Yah that's another option. The same thing can be fabbed locally with set of t25 exhaust flanges and a weld elbow. Look on Ebay for the exhaust flanges, they're about 16-18 bux each.

[meatblanket]

The engine in the link posted is a Defender 200tdi, not a Discovery 200tdi. As such, it should go into a LHD 109 truck without any special exhaust work using the stock 200tdi downpipe.

I don't think any of the Steve Parker bits are designed to put a Disco 200tdi in a LHD Series. I don't think that's gonna happen very easily without a PAS conversion at a minimum.

The moral to the story is that if you have a LHD Series and you want to put a 200tdi in it, you're in for a lot less work if you start with the Defender version rather than the Disco version.

As for the rest of the drivetrain, you should confirm whether the listed is really an LT77 (which is what is typically found on 200tdi). Unless the R380 has a short bellhousing (doesn't look like it) you'll likely have issues with total drivetrain length.

[bullstanky]

Thanks for the insight gents. I have a real (RHD - came across the pond on a boat like my ancestors) Series III 109, so the turbo placement is a non-issue. And the kit says it comes complete with the R380 and transfer box.

Does this mean that I can more or less bolt this sucker in (200TDI and R380) and change out the gearing and be done with it or do I have to have new drive shafts made as well (I'd hate that 'cause my current ones are only 2 years old and the rear one was a custom job)? What about mating a 200TDi to my existing 4 speed and fairey OD--would the torque rip things apart? And what about mating a 200 TDI to my four speed and taking off the fairey OD in exchange for a hi-speed transfer case?

[SafeAirOne]

Though I haven't done it personally, If it were me, I'd probably just stick with the 200Tdi/R380/LT230 setup and have your shafts re-tubed if necessary. Welding is easy and cheap. Machine work isn't.

Read the Driveline Geometry 101 page on Tom Wood's Custom Driveshaft site. Look in the Tech Info section.

With a 109, you may be alright with the setup moved back a bit, so long as you're within the parameters described on that page.

[o2batsea]

Does this mean that I can more or less bolt this sucker in (200TDI and R380) and change out the gearing and be done with it or do I have to have new drive shafts made as well (I'd hate that 'cause my current ones are only 2 years old and the rear one was a custom job)? What about mating a 200TDi to my existing 4 speed and fairey OD--would the torque rip things apart? And what about mating a 200 TDI to my four speed and taking off the fairey OD in exchange for a hi-speed transfer case?

No, you can't just bolt it in. There is quite a lot of reengineering as you are probably beginning to realize. Nothing that hasn't been overcome many times before, so you aren't exactly on untrodden ground. it's a challenging project for the driveway mechanic. Count on another couple thousand for thisses and thats.

[Les Parker]

Few conversions are "bolt in", though being aware of the pitfalls and some idea of the work involved is always worthwhile the time and effort of research.

From speaking to people who have completed the Tdi conversion, the time/money/effort that was taken to complete the project, nearly all thought it was worth the effort. The only downfall is having a good unit to start the project with.

[meatblanket]

Thanks for the insight gents. I have a real (RHD - came across the pond on a boat like my ancestors) Series III 109, so the turbo placement is a non-issue. And the kit says it comes complete with the R380 and transfer box.

Does this mean that I can more or less bolt this sucker in (200TDI and R380) and change out the gearing and be done with it or do I have to have new drive shafts made as well (I'd hate that 'cause my current ones are only 2 years old and the rear one was a custom job)? What about mating a 200TDi to my existing 4 speed and fairey OD--would the torque rip things apart? And what about mating a 200 TDI to my four speed and taking off the fairey OD in exchange for a hi-speed transfer case?

Since you are RHD you can use the Disco version of the 200tdi, which should be available for less $. A bit more work since you have to modify the flywheel housing and use a custom downpipe, but it's another option and a common swap in the UK.

If you want a bolt in install the Defender 200tdi to your existing transmission is the closest you'll get. The Ashcroft hi-ratio transfer case is probably your best bet for strength versus the Fairey OD.

I don't know how fast you want to go, but run your gear ratios through this calculator and see what you come up with.

http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/calc/ratio_calc.html

[meatblanket]

Assuming Defender 200tdi and your existing transmission, this is a rough idea of what your issues will be:

1) Right side chassis bracket for motor mount needs to be fabricated such that it clears the injection pump cleanly. The 200tdi can be physically bolted up without doing this, but be prepared for it. It is not at all difficult if it needs to be done, but it does require welding.
2) Battery has to be relocated under the seat or raised.
3) Throttle linkage needs to be addressed-- probably easiest to remove the Series stuff and install a Defender pedal and cable.
4) The radiator, intercooler and pipes configuration. There are a lot of different ways of dealing with that, but the Defender components won't fit nicely without some fabrication.
5) You'll need a new exhaust system from the 200tdi downpipe all the way out the back, since you'll want a much larger diameter than you get with a 2.25 petrol.

I have a 200tdi in a 110 and I think you'll be very pleased with the performance and the economy.

[meatblanket]

My solution is a little different. I am flipping the turbo around 180, and reclocking the center section. This puts the exhaust toward the front like a 300 tdi.

I subscribed to your thread on D-90 and I'm looking forward to seeing how this works out for you.

[bullstanky]

Few conversions are "bolt in", though being aware of the pitfalls and some idea of the work involved is always worthwhile the time and effort of research.

Absolutely - I guess when I say "bolt in" I'm speaking relatively from the point-of-view of a Series owner, whose perspective would be quite different than that of say, someone who owns a Jaguar. And I'm not planning on re-powering in the driveway, I have a great custom shop that I have worked with before who specializes in building old Mopars (Challengers and Super Bees and the like) who also builds the occasional 4x4.

I guess what I'm asking is, other than perhaps fabricating/welding in new motor mounts, perhaps changing the length of the drive shafts, maybe fabricating a new down pipe, changing gear rations and worst case having to modify the rear crossmember to allow for rear drive shaft travel (which are not minor, but are well within the ability of my shop and, if I keep working until I'm 95 might fit within my Rover rebuild budget), we're not talking about major surgery like cutting the bulkhead or divorcing the transfer case or fabricating some complicated unavailable part. I mean, this is fairly do-able as I understand it, correct?

At least, as of yet, no one has popped up to say, "hey, just run what you've got and be happy with it and don't bother with the can of worms".....

[ArlowCT]

I would kill to have that transit motor in any of our trucks (88"s or the 109") just because I have been wanting a diesel for no real reason. If you do decide to pull it drop me a line.

You could always drop in a nice healthy 2.25 gas motor. Our 109" cruises at 75mph all day long and gets about 17mpg. You just have to love a nice smooth running 2.25 for how simple and reliable they are .

Good luck.

[sleam]

Hey, seems like I missed most of this thread but i wanted to ask you about your series that goes at 75 mph - mine maxes out at 50 and it doesn't feel safe driving any kind of highways which is all we have in NM. What do you think? Would replacing the motor make that much difference? It's a 72 with a 2.25 petrol engine. thanks!