New Bulkheads - Time To Step Up To The Plate

[Bertha]

Well I guess you will never, ever need to buy another Land Rover part because you're so talented. But I for one would rather be able to buy a new bulkhead some day than to have to invest in metal working tools and such. I would also rather pay for one than to spend the time to build it myself. There are things I fix myself and there are things that I'd rather not deal with because there are only so many hours in a day. What is wrong with you? Your attitude stinks.

Plenty of series trucks rot away for want of a bulkhead. Some bulkheads are too far gone to be more than a pattern. Lack of new bulkheads are the one thing that keeps otherwise salvageable Rovers in the parts truck category. Furthermore I can forsee them being exported to the UK since the dollar is weak against the pound, there is a good demand, and the Morris bulkheads have a waiting list.

Jim, I think it's a great idea, I'd considered looking into it too. I have been looking for a decent bulkhead to take to a metal fab shop but haven't found one yet. And although it may indeed be cost prohibitive, I say go for it. I'd buy one just to put in the garage corner for a future project.

The hardest part will be getting the first one made. I know a little about the plastic injection molding industry, and the parallel here is the cost of prototyping. Very high tooling cost. Sounds like these would be handmade, so labor costs would also be high. But if it can be streamlined into component parts and then the final assembly could be simplified, you could reduce the man-hours per piece. Once that's done you can amortize the cost over the production run.

The other thing to think about here is that the availability of new bulkheads could create a new market. One could build a series Land Rover from the ground up. Everything else is out there to build a brand new one!

Unfortunately you have mis-interpreted what I have written-Go back and re-read what I wrote before getting hostile. I am simply stating that the market in the USA is limited for bulkheads due to the limited amount of LR's that exist here. You are kidding about people re-importing Rovers back to the UK-right? They cant give them away overthere. Furthermore , I highly doubt that most people would pay 2500-3000 for a new bulkhead when they can restore there own for a few dollars in sheet metal, because it would cost at least that much to cover reproducing the limited amount that they would sell. In my experience, the people why cry the loudest for other people to make a NLA part are the first ones to back out, when the reality of price comes into play.

[Bertha]

Bertha I am so happy you can do it all yourself. I guess you are a better Rover owner than I. No I can't weld but I do all my own repairs so I strongly suggest you watch your blanket statements about my abilities. I do know that parts wise alone it will cost me $727 just in repair panels my eyes tell me I need which doesn't take into consideration shipping. It also doesn't take into consideration welding, painting or galvanizing, nothing. How in heavens's name can anyone think you add a 2a dash and the area around the vents for less than $300? I have been doing my homework and know for a fact that I can get a fully repaired and primed bulkhead in England for $1700 and have been quoted $3200 for a brand new one. I also know there is a gentleman in Thailand that is talking about building Series body panels and bulkheads. So you see there is also market outside the US for NLA Series body parts. When it is all said and done it all comes down to whom do I want to give my money to and how soon I can get the old one swaped for the new one for I drive mine every day. These are the things that are driving me in this arena. Believe me if Ike Goss ever makes a bulkhead I'll be the first in line.

Would you pay 3200.00 for a new one? The guy in Thailand is TALKING yet not doing anything at this point. Dont get any false hopes there. Try shipping something over from England -that 1700.00 will quickly escalate to a ridiculous level, not to mention, most English repair methods on Rovers are less than satifactory. BTW- where are you getting the $727.00 in repair panels from. If you dont do the work yourself, you wouldonly need to buy the posts. The person you bring it to should easily be able to fabricate everything else-which will lead to a better fit and a much nicer repair.

[Jim-ME]

No I can't pay $3200 for a new one nor do I expect someone to build me one for $1000 either. To answer your question, I need everything from the dash down on my bulkhead to be able to get rid of the rust plus both door pillars. I based my price on our host's prices. To me if it were easy to fabricate these pieces why would anybody stock them? Anybody could build them right? You are absolutely right about the cost of shipping from England. The ace in the hole that I have is that a fellow Rover owner is bringing a container over early in 2009 and I can get some space. If it weren't for him I'd be looking a an easy $600 for shipping. I simply know of someone in the US that is seriously looking into building bulkheads. I was trying selfishly to speed up the process because of the pure quality of that person's work is simply what I want.
J

[yorker]

I do know that parts wise alone it will cost me $727 just in repair panels my eyes tell me I need which doesn't take into consideration shipping. It also doesn't take into consideration welding, painting or galvanizing, nothing. How in heavens's name can anyone think you add a 2a dash and the area around the vents for less than $300?

If you are going to make new bulkheads why screw around with repair panels at retail prices? If you are going to fabricate something you may as well build it from the ground up- right? That ensures you have control over the resources you are depending on to make the bulkheads to begin with.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you?

[edit] OK we posted at the same time I misunderstood you. FWIW A lot of people have been repairing bulkheads without the benefit of repair panels though.

[Bertha]

No I can't pay $3200 for a new one nor do I expect someone to build me one for $1000 either. To answer your question, I need everything from the dash down on my bulkhead to be able to get rid of the rust plus both door pillars. I based my price on our host's prices. To me if it were easy to fabricate these pieces why would anybody stock them? Anybody could build them right? You are absolutely right about the cost of shipping from England. The ace in the hole that I have is that a fellow Rover owner is bringing a container over early in 2009 and I can get some space. If it weren't for him I'd be looking a an easy $600 for shipping. I simply know of someone in the US that is seriously looking into building bulkheads. I was trying selfishly to speed up the process because of the pure quality of that person's work is simply what I want.
J

Simply stated, and not trying to offend, I think that getting a bulkhead built in the US from scratch, while admirable and helpful, will probably never get off the ground for the reason that you just answered- no one would be willing to pay the price of what it would take to produce it, which could easily be 3k or more. Our host offers panels for the DIYer, I seriously doubt that a professional fabricator who would redo your bulkhead , would buy anything past the door posts, for reasons I stated in my last post. Good luck in you quest.

[greenmeanie]

not to mention, most English repair methods on Rovers are less than satifactory.

Care to qualify your statement or is it more sweeping statements? Repairs to a Rover in the UK must still pass the standards set by the MOT. I know, I've been there and done that and the standard set for structural components is higher than most US states.

[Bertha]

Care to qualify your statement or is it more sweeping statements? Repairs to a Rover in the UK must still pass the standards set by the MOT. I know, I've been there and done that and the standard set for structural components is higher than most US states.

Check out one of the supposedly restored in UK Rovers from any of the people that are importing them and then formulate your own opinion.
BTW I know as well, I have been to England too.

[yorker]

Care to qualify your statement or is it more sweeping statements? Repairs to a Rover in the UK must still pass the standards set by the MOT. I know, I've been there and done that and the standard set for structural components is higher than most US states.

I think he is referring to the general standard of restoration for UK trucks vs US. A lot of people have bought trucks that passed MOT and were advertised as great shape but were not up to the standards one would expect from a truck sold in the USA with the same description.

It is a stereotype and it suffers from the same failings all stereotypes do. It probably gets more play than it should but there is a bit of truth to it.

caveat emptor applies to all trucks but particularly those you are buying sight unseen.

[Momo]

Bulkhead

Originally Posted by Bertha

Unfortunately you have mis-interpreted what I have written-Go back and re-read what I wrote before getting hostile.

No, I haven't misinterpreted anything. You were downright insulting to a guy who wants to provide all of us a means to buy the one component missing from the Series parts market. You want to put him and his efforts down, I don't think it's called for and I'll tell you so. Devil's advocate is one thing, being rude about it is another.

I am simply stating that the market in the USA is limited for bulkheads due to the limited amount of LR's that exist here. You are kidding about people re-importing Rovers back to the UK-right?

Read again, I was talking about US produced bulkheads potentially having a market in the UK. Worldwide in fact.

[yorker]

This is getting ridiculous. If you think there is a market then set a price, and start taking preorders with $1000 down payment. That will separate the wheat from the chaff.


Everyone thinks stuff like this is a great idea until you start asking for $.

We could talk and talk and talk about it here and never have anything meaningful come from it.

[Eric W S]

If it was a financially viable thing to do , RN or one of the other suppliers would have invested in it already. Not enough demand and high investment cost will never see that get off the ground here in the USA.

Other suppliers like Craddocks who sell out every replacement bulkhead made even in the UK (which is subject to high taxation in the form of VAT)? One that isn't that great? How about Mr. Morris who has more work than he can actually handle? A couple of his bulkheads have made it here to the US. Check out Guns and rovers. How about the threads on the series2club.co.uk forum where members are trying to find a supplier, even one as far away as Taiwan or China? Or how about other threads on this forum looking for a supplier? How about a supplier like Pangolin4x4 who actually made CAD drawings in preparation for a production run?

The demand is there. And this thread and others from around the world are proof positive of the free market looking to fill that demand.

What are the investment costs? A brake. spot welder and steel is all Mr. Morris uses. He works from his house! So just what are these high investment costs? Hell if you search the series2club forum a guy in Thailand made a scrath built frame and bulkhead in his spare time.

What about the guys in Costa Rica that built a series from scratch? Bulkhead, all body parts, and tub. Their ebay auction comes up about every 3 months.

[greenmeanie]

I think he is referring to the general standard of restoration for UK trucks vs US. A lot of people have bought trucks that passed MOT and were advertised as great shape but were not up to the standards one would expect from a truck sold in the USA with the same description.

It is a stereotype and it suffers from the same failings all stereotypes do. It probably gets more play than it should but there is a bit of truth to it.

caveat emptor applies to all trucks but particularly those you are buying sight unseen.

A lot of the trucks sold like that are specifically put up for sale as export because they won't pass MOT. A truck can still havea V5 without an MOT.

I've seen a good few come over with tack welded scab patches on the chassis, holes in outriggers, fiberglassed footwells, blown engines etc all of which would result in MOT fail.

It is commonly known in the UK that Rovers have a mythical status in the US and people will pay for the 'look' as someone put it earlier. An internet description on ebay of a 'restoration' can mean that it got a wash before the photo. Most prospective US buyers will not pay the money to fly out and look over a truck so a seller can talk it up all he wants. It is extremely difficult to pursue someone legally over the Atlantic. As such there is a certain type of dealer that will cobble together crap to flog to you nice Americans with deep pockets and a wistful look in your eye. As you say Yorker, caveat emptor.

At least in the UK there is a minimum standard that has to be achieved because of the MOT whilst in many states in the US an emissions test is all that counts and not even that for many trucks. If anything I have no lower expectations of vehicles in the US. There is at least one gentleman who is notorious for pedalling junk over here. There are a lot of other people who honestly believe that Rovers don't rust and would like to charge you accordingly.

Bertha, I'm glad you have visited my country. Maybe if you had stayed long enough you could have visited Dunsfold, Gaydon or even one of the big shows and witnessed the standard of work put in to many of the UK trucks. I'm not talking a bit of quality welding here - I'm talking people who contacted the original designer to discuss the finer points of the design with those who originally concieved the vehicle before sourcing or repairing every correct part down to the last nut, bolt and washer.

You sadly have succumbed to one of the common myths about the UK LR movement. Yes there are plenty of rusted out beaters but that is because Landies are like F150's for the UK and not cherished toys like over here.

Get over it. You are right that the bulkheads would most likely not succeed as a commercial venture. That does not mean that there is not a place for someone to make themselves some money catering to those who do want new bulkheads. There are those who would say that Ike and Seriestrek should never succeed because anyone with fabbing skills could produce rock sliders and drivetrain conversions.

Just sayin that nobody has ever succeeded with a negative attitude.

Rant over.
Gregor

[Jim-ME]

OK since I started this I'm going to try to end it before there is more verbal bloodshed. To set the record straight I simply tried to find out what type of interest there is for new bulkheads amongst the members of this forum. Kind of like taking a poll before an election. I think the person that I hope has been following this has a better idea of potential bulkhead demand. He and only he will be making the call as to if it is worth his time and money to provide this product. I sincerely hope he does but only time will tell. My thanks to all that participated.
Jim

[junkyddog11]

It's a tough call to make.

We have the equipment, the talent, and the shops to handle the pressings on hand but would still need to sell 100 or more at $3500 ea to even start to see a return. Very limited market for that.

That makes rebuilding original bulkheads much more attractive from my veiwpoint.

[S11A]

I would have bought one but mine was in outstanding condition. I think $3,500 is pretty reasonable since it is the key piece of, well, I was going to say body work but it is almost more like a part of the frame in that all of the body panels start from there and it is fairly structural...

I haven't added up the cost of various bulkhead replacement panels that are available, and a person might need more than one of those if it is in bad shape. Add in the cost of a shop cutting out and replacing the bad bits (if you do not have the skill or time). Then there would probably be more body shop prep such as blasting and filling, depending on the level of finish you wanted. But I would guess a person could easily come close enough to the $3,500 mark that it would make a lot of sense to just buy a new one and have that peace of mind.

Would the $3,500 you mentioned include galvanizing and subsequent clean-up?

Another idea on this topic would be to see if RN, Pangolin, RDS, BP, Wise Owl, DAP, AB, and other suppliers would be willing to commit to purchasing a minimum quantity over the next 2 - 3 years, stocking these, or underwriting part of the setup cost. This would take some of the doubt out of the producer's mind as to potential market. I would think it would be feasible for most of these shops to commit to buying/stocking 10 each, for maybe a total of 50 of the 100 you said would be required. You could possibly get at least 10 - 20 pre-orders from individuals by hitting the message boards.

ECR's web site says that they are no longer doing mail-order bulkhead repairs, but might be willing to partner on this sort of venture (either to sub out this sort of work or else to manufacture new ones under license to ECR). Perhaps they would be willing to sell their bulkhead jigs and any tooling? In exchange for which they would get some concessions on selling these. Just an idea...

http://www.eastcoastrover.com/Bulkhead.html

Another thought is these guys (I know nothing about them other than what I have read on the Internet) - maybe they have some capability or tooling?

http://www.naturerovers.com/restorationprocess.html

Not sure, but are there differences between the various Series that would require significant tooling variations? There are going to be the people who as someone put it on another thread, will complain that the air cleaner is not exactly the right shade of black.

Just some of my thoughts.