New Bulkheads - Time To Step Up To The Plate

[jp-]

You cannot galvanize bondo, lead, or aluminum.

[yorker]

All the peices are basically like assembled oragami? Unfold them and construct a wooden template on what shape to cut out and guides on where to drill. The indentations could be rolled by hand if you can match the contour in the footwells. This would be a majority of the work.

Once everything is cut/drilled, and or rolled, you could in theory start spot welding things together.

This is a gross oversimplification as I am sure there are things that would be very difficult to replicate without the factory tooling.

How do you reproduce the vent panel?

[Jim-ME]

The vent panel and a 2a dash and how to make them is the hold up as you need, from what I gather one big rugged press.

Jim

[Bertha]

Out of curiousity Jim - what would you pay for a brand new, made to factory spec, galv bulkhead?

[junkyddog11]

Just to clarify, this isn't an attack, or cynical repsonse or any of that.

Wasn't taking it as such.

As for the bulkheads I have I do restore them and use them on trucks that are being built or for customers. It takes much effort and does not return much, other than satisfaction....which doesn't pay bill but none the less is good. I don't deal much with flogging stuff on e-bay.

Bulkheads seem like a relatively easy thing to produce I'm sure....judging from the response to this thread. It does take some sort of economy of scale. You cant invest in all kinds of fixtured tooling and have it sitting around collecting dust to do onesy twosy's. I can't even justify the cost of some equipment but depend on the talents of the local submarine building (Portsmouth Naval Shipyard) and the subcontract shops that have the equipment. It's a tough call and I'd love to do it but for now will stick to re-building.

...and bending sheetmetal the old fashoned way....on a tree, in the woods, behind the wheel.

[Jeff Aronson]

Jim, you are speaking for many Series owners who know that a rotting bulkhead can really take a great Rover off the road. My QE I almost had to exit to the world of "parts car" until ECR rescued me with a rebuilt bulkhead.

There's not just one bulkhead for all the Series vehicles. They differ between the Series I, II, II-A and III. Enthusiasts who are avid about restoration don't want a "generic" almost-like-the-original bulkhead; they will demand an exact replica. The fit of the bulkhead is essential if everything else is to fit on a frame. A critical starting point is the creation of a jig that has the exact dimensions needed (knowing full well that not every Rover is "exact"), and that would have to be done for every model.

Even if you're rebuilding a car for daily use, you still want the fenders, doors, windshield and rear tub to fit correctly. I certainly know you have high standards for your daily driver, Jim

Over the years, I've watched skilled fabricators at Rovers North and East Coast Rover rebuild bulkheads. It's a complex job; check out what Lindsay Porter wrote about welding bulkheads in his restoration book. Remember, too, that anyone who constructs parts assumes significant liability for safety. So the tooling, metal, testing, etc., needs to be up to snuff. Certainly I would not want to buy a bulkhead that has not been tested, or from an unknown fabricator. It's a critical part of the car's structure.

I respect Matt Browne's statements. He keeps a lot of Land Rovers operational and upgrades many vehicles here in New England. If he subcontracts the work, it's for a good reason.

And in recent decades, several vendors and restoration shops have made up a small number of critical parts, at their own expense, only to find that the inventory sits rather long, maybe too long sometimes.

You've launched a great effort, Jim! Keep up the good work. The discussion here is terrific and shows our real affection for our beloved Series Rovers. If we keep the enthusiasm high, a viable, quality solution will present itself.

[Jim-ME]

I know bulkheads are not easy to produce and I seriously hope I have not given anyone the impression that I think it is or should be a simple thing to do. If it were, we wouldn't be having this discussion because people would be making them. Hell, I am in awe at the people that can repair them but I won't let just anyone repair mine either. True, there are differences between the various Series Rovers but I do believe that it would be possible to make one for a Series 2/2a and one for a Series 3. To me the folks that are into true restoration (here comes the hate mail) would rebuild one or take several to make one or expect to pay much more to add the necessary differences to make it pure. What I think the majority of us need/want/ and are willing to pay for, is a well constructed bulkhead that fits and fits together with the rest of the body panels like the factory one did. Bertha, to answer your question, if I could get a new galvanized 2a bulkhead that someone like Ike Goss, Mike Smith or Matt Browne looked at and deemed it good. I'd pay $2500 to $3000. It would hurt but I'd never feel that I got taken. I choked at the $3200 English one because I can't see one before buying it. Then I can add about $600 for shipping. I won't spend that kind of money without seeing what I'm getting.
Jeff I hear everything you are saying and I appreciate the support. However I do feel that if someone can make a bulkhead there is a strong likely hood that they can be sold outside the US which will expand the market. I'll go back to my origional statement. I don't think that this can be a stand alone business and never have. I probably should borrow $1,000,000, hire some of the best fabricators I can find, buy the machinery, and make one or possibly 2 myself before I went broke.
Jim

[Terrys]

From '86 to '99, I spent 2 weeks every quarter in the UK. I worked with an organization (Casting Developement Centre) in Sheffield that does tooling and product developement work for member organizations (Other foundries, or users of castings) Apart from the full foundry facilities, to 10 metric tonnes, we had a full maching centre, with several Ramboudi 5 axis mills. One of the jobs I distictly remember was the dies (M&F) for the first freelander roof panel. Land Rover was a corporate member, and that machining job cost them over 60K pounds. That was a very simple die, and did not have details for sunroof.
The die set to form the outer skin for 2A bulkhead wouldn't differ from an S3, but would still be more complex than the Freelander roof. In todays costs, I can easily see it running 75K pounds. That's just one of several diesets needed.
Maybe somone, with more enthusiasm and ambition than I, might inquire as to the whereabouts of the original tooling.

[Jim-ME]

I am no fabricator and don't even know enough about what is entailed in making bulkheads to be dangerous so I won't be using the correct terminology or even try. Morris in England has all the "stuff" needed to make bulkheads. Somebody had to manufacture the necessary "stuff" for him unless he got his hands on the origionals. This is probably highly over simplified but it would seem to me that a second set of "stuff" has to be easier to obtain than starting from scratch. The next logical step here in my mind is to try to find out who made Mr. Morris's "stuff" and once we knew the cost of a second set and only then could an informed decision be made as to if this pipedream is even possible. Like I said I'm sure I oversimplified what needs to be done and quite frankly I don't know where to even start much less what questions to ask to get the answers.
Jim

[Eric W S]

Remember, too, that anyone who constructs parts assumes significant liability for safety. So the tooling, metal, testing, etc., needs to be up to snuff. Certainly I would not want to buy a bulkhead that has not been tested, or from an unknown fabricator. It's a critical part of the car's structure.

Any discussion of inherent risk and the need for a policy will automatically make the project a true pipe dream. I think AIG is still underwriting Original Manufacture Auto parts. And it is extremely expenseive. I doubt the admitted market would even underwrite and then your at the mercy of folks like us in the surplus market. Our policy start at 10k. . .

[NC Rover]

I think it would be worth it. Sometimes things are not being fabricated or sold only because no one took the time or even thought of trying it. I bet there would be quite a few people who would be interested.

I just found out about a local land rover meeting in my area this weekend and I'm sure I will find a few who would be interested.

[One4adventure]

Hi all,

New to the board but not to rovers.....

I would say with some certainty the the "Stuff" meaning the press tooling used by rovers is still in production today for the defender bulkheads.

Having said that if you are serious about a low budget solution why not consider recycling the upper dashes, this will let you start fabbing in much the same way ECR did I would assume.

But if all new is the way you want go then get the pieces didgetized by a tool shop with a CMM and then ask them to cut a Kirksite tool, should be fine for 100 hits before you start thinking recut, only certain areas will wear so you can insert with tool steel and then bang away in the tool shops tryout press. Tool shops in Detroit area are hurting, if you want a good reference let me know.

Chris

[junkyddog11]

Hi all,

if you are serious about a low budget solution why not consider recycling the upper dashes,

....that's pretty much what we are doing already. I think the topic was all about making new.