Defender Central

[greenmeanie]

I think you may see the world as a little too black and white. All countries are a mixture of socialism/fascism/capatilism etc. and all are shades of grey. Taxes are required for funding social programs and a common infrastructure which is a form of socialism. No country functions without it.

My company is in the same industry as yours. The FAA and military organizations (government) take great care in putting in place mechanisms to make sure that we manage that risk which is why we pay a premium for the quality of parts and delivery. That does not mean that we still buy them from the supplier that provides the lowest bid while meeting our requirements.

“When was the last time the government did this? When was the last time they cut costs; laid people off, cut entitlement programs, etc?” Umm look at the reduction in the US military in the 1990s. Ask any nurse in the British NHS system about cost control when it comes to medical care.

As I said I do not mind paying taxes if I see that I get value for money. I do not consider all government programs to be well run but that is a matter of process control rather than inherent issues with government itself. I consider national health care to be value added while I do not agree with the foreign policy expenditure of the current government.

“Man, how great that would be if I could hand down en edict to all my customers to mandate that they purchase more from me, or simply raise the price to whatever I needed it to be! Impossible?” Umm, have you looked at the health industry in this country over the last few years? I think that is exactly the problem have with private health insurance right now.

[leafsprung]

Still don't see any irony. A system of government is separate from an economic system, and should be.

Im sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but its not seperate, nor will it ever be seperate in this country. The government has a massive role in our ecconomy. Unfettered capitalism is inherently unstable.

Mark my words, someday we will be joking about global warming, just as you joke about global cooling (which attenuates your whole argument).

Perhaps you should re-read. It does not matter if global warming is true or not. We should be striving to reduce pollution regardless of the immediate threat of climate change.

[Rineheitzgabot]

I think you may see the world as a little too black and white. All countries are a mixture of socialism/fascism/capatilism etc. and all are shades of grey. Taxes are required for funding social programs and a common infrastructure which is a form of socialism. No country functions without it.

My company is in the same industry as yours. The FAA and military organizations (government) take great care in putting in place mechanisms to make sure that we manage that risk which is why we pay a premium for the quality of parts and delivery. That does not mean that we still buy them from the supplier that provides the lowest bid while meeting our requirements.

“When was the last time the government did this? When was the last time they cut costs; laid people off, cut entitlement programs, etc?” Umm look at the reduction in the US military in the 1990s. Ask any nurse in the British NHS system about cost control when it comes to medical care.

As I said I do not mind paying taxes if I see that I get value for money. I do not consider all government programs to be well run but that is a matter of process control rather than inherent issues with government itself. I consider national health care to be value added while I do not agree with the foreign policy expenditure of the current government.

“Man, how great that would be if I could hand down en edict to all my customers to mandate that they purchase more from me, or simply raise the price to whatever I needed it to be! Impossible?” Umm, have you looked at the health industry in this country over the last few years? I think that is exactly the problem have with private health insurance right now.

Your comment about the gov't. cutting costs in healthcare and military is a good point, and I mispoke with my generality. I should have said, "When was the last time the government cust costs in a way that would make them unpopular to the masses?" Think about this one before you answer.

I have been accused of seeing things black and white; I will concede. However, I do this in the name of "pushing back". As you both (Leafsprung and Greenmeanie) have indicated, socialism is alive and well in our country. Is it under Stalin? Of course, not. However, what's to stop it? This is why I come across like that.

If I have to accept that some form of socialism exists in our country, so be it; but I will never stop trying to push it back. No matter what state the economy and government are in, currently, it is not what our founding fathers intended, and there is a reason why they intended it to be the way they did--to prevent tyranny.

Leafsprung: Just because I think that the idea of global warming is bogus, does not mean that I think we should start pouring used motor oil down the sewers. I have no problem in encouraging less polution. It must be done in a responsible, practical manner, however.

[greenmeanie]

I wonder why you associate socialism with tyranny? Bear in mind that socialism is not communism so the parallel with Stalin is rather extreme. Even Greenspan admitted that capitalism and the free market had not worked in the manner he had understood and predicted with the results that we are all currently experiencing.

As stated, countries are made up of a mix of different social concepts; too far in any one direction results in eventual collapse and often with dire consequences. This is why a stable, functioning country needs a balance of the two to promote growth and development but also to generate a stable and safe environment for the larger population. That was the purpose of the constitution in its broad sense.

The art of the game is finding those areas that benefit from socialism and using it to the advantage of the population at large. You pay taxes to fund the military, the police and public works such as bridges, roads etc. as it benefits the country as a whole. You pay taxes to funds government that is supposed to structure and steer the economy to make it stable and keep it growing. It is beneficial to do so as a unified country is a far stronger, safer and productive place to live than an anarchic state of individuals.

Nationalised healthcare will not result in red flags or an October Revolution as it meets a basic need of the population.

If healthcare is nationalized there is no reason for drug companies to stop developing new drugs. The market will still be there for new products as the need will still exist. The difference is that the market will change and profit may be more difficult to realize. They will be marketing to a bigger entity who will expect to realize savings by economy of scale which can only benefit us as the end user.

…and it all the fault of the trying to import coilers. I knew the 25 year rule would eventually bring down the country. Long live the leafers

[Rineheitzgabot]

I wonder why you associate socialism with tyranny? Bear in mind that socialism is not communism so the parallel with Stalin is rather extreme. Even Greenspan admitted that capitalism and the free market had not worked in the manner he had understood and predicted with the results that we are all currently experiencing.

As stated, countries are made up of a mix of different social concepts; too far in any one direction results in eventual collapse and often with dire consequences. This is why a stable, functioning country needs a balance of the two to promote growth and development but also to generate a stable and safe environment for the larger population. That was the purpose of the constitution in its broad sense.

The art of the game is finding those areas that benefit from socialism and using it to the advantage of the population at large. You pay taxes to fund the military, the police and public works such as bridges, roads etc. as it benefits the country as a whole. You pay taxes to funds government that is supposed to structure and steer the economy to make it stable and keep it growing. It is beneficial to do so as a unified country is a far stronger, safer and productive place to live than an anarchic state of individuals.

Nationalised healthcare will not result in red flags or an October Revolution as it meets a basic need of the population.

If healthcare is nationalized there is no reason for drug companies to stop developing new drugs. The market will still be there for new products as the need will still exist. The difference is that the market will change and profit may be more difficult to realize. They will be marketing to a bigger entity who will expect to realize savings by economy of scale which can only benefit us as the end user.

I don't have the energy, to go, much longer. Must, keep, America, alive...

...should the U.N. step in, to moderate this thread...(?)

I associate socialism with tyranny because of history. All I can say is that I have not met anyone with such a positive outlook on it (socialism), and man, I hope you are correct.

Why do people go into business? How are tax revenues generated? Answer: All rooted in the potential for profit; hence the enlightened self-interest I talked about. Take that potential away, and tax revenues will diminish. This is the paradox for the left, and something that must be quite scary for them--or at least it should be.

The more control the government has, the less freedom you have. I do not think that there is a conspiracy to do this. However, I think the passions of the moment, move us in directions that aren't always in our best interest, for the long haul.

It is like the story about boiling a frog: You don't boil a frog by dropping it in boiling water, you put it in cold water, then turn on the heat. By the time he realizes what's going on--it's too late.

All I have left to say is that almost all of what you said above is your opinion still, and I will stand firm on everything that I said in the past.

You've ground me down. You win. It would take alot to get me to write another damn response on this thread...

[I Leak Oil]

Wow....All this from a silly picture of a parking lot full of used Land Rovers!
All hail the power of the Rover.....

Jason T.

[Eric W S]

It's a good read though. And no one is going "Discoweb" on anyone so it's actually nice to see intelligent discourse on the internet...

[Carpe]

No doubt. So we'll have a bunch of folks hopping out of Low Range on their status and moving into 1st Gear, or whatever the next delineation is once you make 100 comments.

[Jim-ME]

I'm not looking for posting points so I'll give some of this this a go.

Global Warming - I agree with Ike. We have a responsibility to be good stewards of our planet. I will not get into the argument as to if it's real or not but we must wake up, give a crap and make sure that as individuals, we take care of our air, water and soil if we are to survive. If everyone simply adopts this type of philosophy we will be OK.

The debate over health care - I personally don't feel that health care is a god given right but it is easy for me to say because I have a great plan. I will also say that I have put up with a less than desireable job with less than equitable pay to keep my benefits My real feeling is that if we could control the BS lawsuits and the idea that a pill will make you better no matter how you take care of yourself, our health care should be less expensive.

Our economy - We have done this to ourselves out of greed or ignorance or both, and each of us have no one else to blame but ourselves. We want the big house, the Defender 110, the Rangie etc just like the neighbors if we can afford it or not. Hell we work hard we're due. Where is the individuals responsibility here? If I want a pair of Ike's sliders but don't have the money to buy them outright. I have 2 realistic choices, use my home equity to write a check or save the money until I can afford them. What pisses me off is what seems to be current thinking. I should expect Ike to build me a set out of the kindness of his heart because he has the sliders but I don't have the money. Why should I have to wait to pay for what I want? This kind of attitude really burns my ass. You have, I want, therefore you give me.

Just an old fart's ramblings,
Jim

PS
Ike,
I owe you for the hand throttle clip. Please PM me and I'll sent you the money.

[Eric W S]

I'm not looking for posting points so I'll give some of this this a go.

Global Warming - I agree with Ike. We have a responsibility to be good stewards of our planet. I will not get into the argument as to if it's real or not but we must wake up, give a crap and make sure that as individuals, we take care of our air, water and soil if we are to survive. If everyone simply adopts this type of philosophy we will be OK.

The debate over health care - I personally don't feel that health care is a god given right but it is easy for me to say because I have a great plan. I will also say that I have put up with a less than desireable job with less than equitable pay to keep my benefits My real feeling is that if we could control the BS lawsuits and the idea that a pill will make you better no matter how you take care of yourself, our health care should be less expensive.

Our economy - We have done this to ourselves out of greed or ignorance or both, and each of us have no one else to blame but ourselves. We want the big house, the Defender 110, the Rangie etc just like the neighbors if we can afford it or not. Hell we work hard we're due. Where is the individuals responsibility here? If I want a pair of Ike's sliders but don't have the money to buy them outright. I have 2 realistic choices, use my home equity to write a check or save the money until I can afford them. What pisses me off is what seems to be current thinking. I should expect Ike to build me a set out of the kindness of his heart because he has the sliders but I don't have the money. Why should I have to wait to pay for what I want? This kind of attitude really burns my ass. You have, I want, therefore you give me.

Just an old fart's ramblings,
Jim

PS
Ike,
I owe you for the hand throttle clip. Please PM me and I'll sent you the money.

What he said!

I knew we were heading for a catastrophe when the banks stopped asking you why you were 3 days late on a 20 dollar credit card....


EwS

[jp-]

Socialism is not too far removed from communism, don’t kid yourself Green.

The danger of socialism is real, because it removes motivation from the masses. The true greatness of capitalism is the motivational factor that it has. In other words, I can have anything that I am willing to work for. That is what makes America great. Because any man, by his own hard labor, or inventiveness, can succeed and improve his standing in life. Show me where that exists in a socialist state?

I personally know the former head surgeon of Ukraine. He was paid no more than a plumber. He went through the efforts to become a doctor simply because he wanted to. He immigrated to the United States about 10 years ago to the great dissatisfaction of the Ukrainian government. He wanted more for his family and children than just a plumber.

Socialism drags everyone down to a lower level. It does not raise everyone up to the level of the wealthy as some on here seem to believe. Why must I feel guilty if I want my children to go to a better school, and I can work harder to do that? Maybe I shouldn’t have even gone to school, and should have just stayed a dishwasher? Life without motivation is bleak indeed. Those who are the angriest over what they do not have, are often the laziest in our society.

[Les Parker]

Back on track

Just a freindly nudge, this string seems to be going away from "All Things Landrover", please stay within the bounds of our common interest.

Tks

[jp-]

Just a freindly nudge, this string seems to be going away from "All Things Landrover", please stay within the bounds of our common interest.

[Please no aggression here !!!!)

[jp-]

The sun is in a period of reduced activity at the moment so that idea is bogus. I support any theory that asserts man has a negative affect on his environment and encourages people to clean up their collective acts. Its foolish to believe we can keep pissing in the stream and think we are not going to taste something funny eventually. Now, where can i get a global cooling bumper sticker?

The article merely pointed out that our global temperature was largely (nearly entirely) dependent on the output of the sun. It was by a solar scientist. The article itself did not lean to warming or cooling, as near as I recall. Personally, I'm not a meteorologist and I don't profess to know what our future climate will do. I just wish that all these alarmists would shut up as well, as they are not meteorologists or even scientists. The whole thing is far too alarmist for my taste. Plus, I have a problem with the fact that meteorologists can't accurately predict weather two weeks out, yet they know exactly what our climate will do in 10-20 years... A lot of people out there are trying to make this a debate instead of leaving it to the scientists.

I am all for keeping the environment as clean as possible and polluting less. I just don't want to shutdown our coal power plants based on an unproven theory...


Look at all the pretty Defenders...obligatory comment.

[greenmeanie]

Ummmm Defenders are build in a union shop – I suppose that explains the quality????

JP, If you want to continue off line PM me as it is quite fun. If not I undestand.