The plot tickens (series III backfire/idle, brakes)

[NickDawson]

Hey guys, just a quick update...

Took the distributor cap off to inspect the points, and then turned the engine over ... forgetting to put the cap back on. I cranked it for about 15 seconds and then realized what I'd done.

Long story short, if the coil wasn't dead before, then it is now. The ignition lead is strong at 12V and the small lead going to the distributor is strong at 12V, but the lead coming out of the coil to the top of the distributor is dead dead dead. It will slowly discharge a few microvolts but doesnt seem to put putting out anything substantial.

This was confirmed by my the brother of my friend, a mechanic whos is a little red, he used a screw driver and tried to get it to arch off the block...didn't seem wise to me, but nonetheless, no spark.

without the vacuum it was pointless to try and bleed the brakes - right? So we got the back to bleed and called it a night.

So - does a coil fail slowly? Could it be my root cause of the backfiring, etc? or did I burn it out by cracking without the distributor cap in place? It got hot!

Next question - anyone know what kind of coil I need for my 2.5l?

While I had the cap of, I checked the points, they were new and clean, but pitted, going to replace the as well.

Also, to time them, I understand I need to turn the crankshaft - the pulley is held on with a large (guessing 34mm) bolt - nothing I have fits it, and its recessed into the pulley so I can't get a monkey wrench on it. It does not have the groves for a hand crank. Any ideas on turning it over to time the new points?

Finally - brakes, the front two bleeders are rusty and slick with oil and feel like they are stripping - any ideas on getting them open without damaging?

[TJR]

Hey guys, just a quick update...


Also, to time them, I understand I need to turn the crankshaft - the pulley is held on with a large (guessing 34mm) bolt - nothing I have fits it, and its recessed into the pulley so I can't get a monkey wrench on it. It does not have the groves for a hand crank. Any ideas on turning it over to time the new points?

Finally - brakes, the front two bleeders are rusty and slick with oil and feel like they are stripping - any ideas on getting them open without damaging?

I'll have to re-read the first part to better understand what your saying.. ?

As for rotating the points cam(lobe) to open the points w/o using the front pulley.

1.) place car in 4th gear high range T/Case and slowy push it forward. have someone with you to step on the brakes

2.) you may be able to rotate the engine by grabbing and rotating the fan blade(Trans not in gear, car's wheels blocked) which will turn the lower pulley via the v-belt, though you may have the fan shroud in the way.


...Talbot

[TJR]

Here's a web album of a few pages of the book I mentioned to you in your other posting.... Click on the pics to enlarge them....TJR

http://picasaweb.google.com/88seriesiii/Ignition_Basics?authkey=Gv1sRgCPzt7KPUlviJhwE&feat=directlink

[pisten-bully]

Hey guys, just a quick update...

So - does a coil fail slowly? Could it be my root cause of the backfiring, etc? or did I burn it out by cracking without the distributor cap in place? It got hot!

Also, to time them, I understand I need to turn the crankshaft - the pulley is held on with a large (guessing 34mm) bolt - nothing I have fits it, and its recessed into the pulley so I can't get a monkey wrench on it. It does not have the groves for a hand crank. Any ideas on turning it over to time the new points?

Check the wiring, too, before you sign the death certificate on that coil. HT lead could be bad, the ground may be faulty, etc.

Also, if I were you I'd simply go purchase the correct socket for that front pulley so you can turn the crank. But since you don't seem to have the hand crank dog on the pulley, do something like pull the plugs to ensure the engine doesn't fire while you've got a wrench on that pulley... you'd get more than bruised knuckles if it did !

[jac04]

I assume that you have a double groove crank pulley and that's why the bolt is recessed. I'm in the same boat. The socket is 1-11/16" or 43mm. Tractor Supply usually stocks the 1-11/16" socket in 3/4" drive.

[daveb]

Nick

First, do you own the factory service manual for this truck? You are asking some pretty open ended questions that really require long and complicated answers and would best be solved by you acquiring and the manual and following its instructions step by step. The haynes manual also has a pretty good section on ignition troubleshooting.

short answers below:


>This was confirmed by my the brother of my friend, a mechanic whos is a little red,

are you saying he is a redneck? how is that pertinent to the story?

>he used a screw driver and tried to get it to arch off the block...didn't seem wise to me, but nonetheless, no spark.

arc, not arch. what else did he do. did he try to figure out why there is no spark?

>without the vacuum it was pointless to try and bleed the brakes - right?

wrong. no vacuum required. do it with the engine off.

>So - does a coil fail slowly?

never had one fail so I don't know

>Could it be my root cause of the backfiring, etc?

doubt it. most likely it is your haphazard diagnostic and tuning method.

>did I burn it out by cracking without the distributor cap in place?

doubt it. coil will still discharge through the points. do you see an arc there?

>It got hot!

something is not set up properly.

>Next question - anyone know what kind of coil I need for my 2.5l?

yes, the kind our hosts sell. end of story. you can get into parts substitution later in life when you have leanred more of the basics. if RN's price is to high then go somewhere else but don't talk about it here. just make sure you buy one for a LR.

>While I had the cap of, I checked the points, they were new and clean, >but pitted, going to replace the as well.

pitted is not the same as new and clean.

> the pulley is held on with a large (guessing 34mm) bolt - Any ideas on >turning it over to time the new points?

um, a 34 mm socket perhaps?

>Finally - brakes, the front two bleeders are rusty and slick with oil and >feel like they are stripping - any ideas on getting them open without >damaging?

if I get stuck bleeders I pull the rubber bits out of the cylinder and heat the bleeder with a MAPP torch. that usually works. if you can't fathom this then buy new cylinders. again, MAPP gas to get the lines undone or you'll be replacing them too. Keep a fire extinguisher close at hand any time you are using open flame on your vehicle. see what I mean about long answers?

[pisten-bully]

Nick

if I get stuck bleeders I pull the rubber bits out of the cylinder and heat the bleeder with a MAPP torch. that usually works. if you can't fathom this then buy new cylinders. again, MAPP gas to get the lines undone or you'll be replacing them too. Keep a fire extinguisher close at hand any time you are using open flame on your vehicle. see what I mean about long answers?

Heat the cylinder body around the bleeder and/or brake line fitting, try not to put heat to the bleeder screw itself or brake line fitting. You're hoping to expand the metal of the cylinder body enough to allow those things to screw out.

[NickDawson]

Thanks all, I appreciate the input!

I may not be testing it correctly, but I checked every wire coming into and out of that coil. It was dark out at the time, I think we would have seen a spark if there was one. I don't want to be hasty in replacing it, but it really seems to have kicked the bucket.

I retract my statement about the points looking new and/or pitted - frankly I guess I dont know what they should look like.

I'll check around for that 1-11/16th socket today, thanks Jac04.

some pics, for what they are worth...






this is the connection b/t the distributor and the carb - anyone think that cracked bushing could be a problem?

I don't want to ask the questions the wrong way or sound repetitive, but I feel pretty confident that the coil is dead. I'll call RN and see what my options are.
I'm still curious if the coil was slowing going bad and not delivering a good spark, wouldn't that account for my slight backfiring? Maybe that's wishful thinking.

[pisten-bully]

Thanks all, I appreciate the input!

I'll check around for that 1-11/16th socket today, thanks Jac04.

Save the receipt!

[NickDawson]

Save the receipt!

what am I missing?

[bmohan55]

Not that I am a wealth of experience but your trials and tribulations seems to be mirroring my problems with my recently aquired truck (and our mechanical knowledge seem to match up, i.e. near non-existant) so here it goes.

Get a new cap, rotor, points, condenser, wires & plugs, that way you can eliminate those relatively cheap parts as the problem. Keep the old ones incase they were good so you will have spares. I'd do the distributor parts first , if no change in performance then change the plugs, again if no change then the wires.

The bushing your refer to is the vacuum advance, it shouldn't have anything to do with your problems as it only comes into play at higher engine speeds.

I also stripped out my brake bleed screw so I went ahead and installed new wheel cylinders, again not too expensive and now I don't have to worry about them. Actually one thing lead to another and I re-did the entire brake system, remember whoa is more important than go!

My biggest advice to you is to find someone with basic mechanical knowledge (these trucks are VERY basic) and make him/her your best buddy. I was adopted my the mechanics here at the plant and have learned sooo much by their hands-on training/advice that is impossible to convey via this board. Buy them lunch, dinner or free health care, what ever deal you can strike but it very difficult and discouraging to try to trouble shoot alone at our level. I couldn't have done what I've done without hands-on help.

I'd be willing to help you later on but right know I'm finishing my truck (new distrbutor and u-joints go on tonight) and if I start spending time under another truck right away I believe SWMBO may not be very happy. Give me a week or two!

[pisten-bully]

what am I missing?

You know Land Rovers... no two are alike. So if the socket doesn't fit, take it back and get another!

[kevkon]

I think it would be wise to invest in the proper Whitworth and other tools if you are going to do your own wrenching. For the bleeders use a dedicated bleeder wrench or a flair wrench. Soak it liberally with WD40 and let it sit overnight, then give it a sharp tap. If that doesn't work then resort to the heat method. Just make sure you have a new set of bleeder valves on hand.
As for the vacuum advance, any vacuum leak in the system can cause problems. Your engine is drawing in air which effectively leans out the fuel mixture. In addition the job of the vacuum advance is to advance the timing under no load conditions ( that's when the vacuum is at it's greatest) as when you are running with the throttle closed. So a vacuum leak will not only allow the mixture to lean out it will also prevent the distributor from advancing the spark to the degree needed under partial throttle conditions.

[NickDawson]

My biggest advice to you is to find someone with basic mechanical knowledge (these trucks are VERY basic) and make him/her your best buddy.

Agree with this 100% - just trying to find the right buddy. My neighbor is pretty knowledgeable, but is no expert on Rovers. Together we are better than either one of us on our own. Not the same as having a master mechanic, but its a start.

You know Land Rovers... no two are alike. So if the socket doesn't fit, take it back and get another!

Tell me about it!

Kevkon - I'll get that vacuum line to the advance sorted as well.

Ordered a new cylinder (proline), plugs, points, condenser and cap from our hosts along with a new wheel cylinder in case I cant get the bleeder loose.

I also found the 1-11/16th socket on Amazon ($5 and with their prime service, free shipping) along with a set of feeler gauges

If it ever starts again, it will be a miracle, but in the mean time at least it will have a bunch of shiny new parts

Thanks again folks!

[NickDawson]

One more question -
The Green bible's limited diagrams show the wheel cylinders on the top of the wheel. On mine, that is true for the rears. But on the front wheels the bleeder is on the bottom. Does that sound correct?