The plot tickens (series III backfire/idle, brakes)

[kevkon]

Well, one can of penetrating oil and blaster and two days later and I still cannot get the lugs off, even with a breaker bar. I think the shop that put the tires on played a cruel joke...

Part of the problem is the crappy lug wrench the came with the truck, it keeps popping off. I checked the auto store and couldnt find one large enough. Going to call RN in the morning and see if they have one...

I'm still calling around to find a local shop but not having much luck. I'd prefer to get it knocked out for a reasonable lump sum rather than me buying tools like an air compressor and impact wrench just to get the lugs off.

Try calling a mobile truck tire service company. Their trucks have compressors and air guns. I'd still concentrate on getting it running before getting into the brakes, though.

[NickDawson]

Every time I'd ready to give up you guys come back with more advice that I'm dieing to try... just leave me, save yourselves!

Joking aside, I'm coming around to the conclusion that it may not be our weekend ride again anytime soon and I can live with that I guess - but we do have street cleaning coming up so if I can't move it soon, the city may do it for me. To that end, I'm going to take the common theme here and pick a problem - getting it running. Tell me if I'm wrong, but if I had to move it 400 yards to avoid a costly tow, I could at least use a combo of engine breaking and the hand break to bring it to a stop.

Did the brakes go out Nick?

Besides, it's all very easy.

The coil won't send a charge until the points open.

With the keys out of the ignition, pop the top of the distributor and rotor and look at where the lobe is on the points. Make sure the lobe is not at the point where it would be opening the points.

grab your starter handle and insert it into the front crank position, or if you don't have that just grab the belts.

I can't remember the size that the points need to be set at off the top of my head

To adjust the points you will see two small grooves in the body of the points assembly and the base of the distributor. It's just big enough for a medium sized screwdriver to catch both sides. Use that point as a lever to adjust the points as you are opening and closing the points to perfection.


You can't kill the coil by cranking the motor with the distributor cap off. If it was working before all of this, I'd doubt it's broken now. So don't loose too much sleep over that.

Let us know your results.

This is great info - really builds on what I have learned from talking to the guys at RN and the other posts here. Thanks Tim, et al!

Part of the problem is me understanding what the various parts are - I found some diagrams and now think I know what the lobe is (for instance) and the other part is learning how the system works. Its starting to sink in.

I got a set of feeler gauges so in theory I should be good there. I've also go some super fine wood working sand paper - any difference between that and the automotive stuff?

I've tried moving the belts and they just slip, but hopefully the 1-11/16 socket on its way will help me turn the engine. I'm still not exactly clear what I'm looking for but suspect it will become apparent as I get deeper into it - and of course I'll be asking a lot of questions here.

Make sure that break in the insulation, of the low tension lead as seen in pic IMG_0600, isn't grounding out to the dizzy body and that the wire inside isn't broken.

That crude on the spark plug electrodes inside the dizzy cap, IMG-0602, shouldn't be there.

Wow - didn't even see that nick in the insulation - will get right on it, good eye! Again, goes back to learning more about how the system works...I guess that's the benefit of having to do this myself

Thanks again folks, I'll continue to keep everyone posted.

[SeriesShorty]

I can't really help out with your mechanical problems Nick and these other guys have got you covered, but when it's street sweeping time on my street and my truck is down, I put a big note in my road side window glass that says "broke down sorry, parts on order" and they haven't ticketed me or towed me. Of course, they are used to at least one of my Rovers being broke down at any given time. However, your area may be much tougher so use with caution.

[pisten-bully]

Nick, The lugnuts on my Rover(s) take a 1 1/16" socket. That's a good socket to have when you own a Land Rover.

There's a thread on this forum about OEM versus aftermarket parts, and I think the same sentiments should apply to tools. Sometimes saving a few bucks on a cheap tool is false economy. So where you ordered the socket from Amazon, that's fine except you have to wait for it and it could be poor quality. Sometimes inexpensive tools work great, sometimes they're junk.

My toolbox has some cheap tools in it, but most are the more expensive brand name tools. For sockets and wrenches... my opinion is that you should stop by a Sears store and purchase Craftsman (certainly not the only option, but most people can find a Sears store near them). That way you've got a good tool, and you've got it now.

[NickDawson]

Sometimes saving a few bucks on a cheap tool is false economy.

Yeah - I'd agree with that. I have a full craftsman wrench and socket set that I love - just nothing that big. I've had it since I was like 7 so its likely that I've lost the 1-1/16th if I ever had it.

After remodeling our house ourselves (where is the internet forum for that!?!?) we got good at determining good tools from rubbish.

My amazon order was a get-er-done thing, but there is a rumor that Sears is sponsoring the classic car show in town this weekend and will have tools for sale at a large tent. This could get dangerous !

[bmohan55]

What classic car show???

[galen216]

What classic car show???

x2

[Tim Smith]

...I've also go some super fine wood working sand paper - any difference between that and the automotive stuff?

I think the proper stuff is called emery paper but lately I've just been using plumbers sand paper. If you're doing a remodel, then I bet you have some of that laying around.

Regular fine sand paper should also work but sometimes it leaves some of the sand behind. Just make sure there aren't any grains stuck in between the points when you are done and you'll do fine.

You also have new points on the way right? Once you swap them in, you should still clean these ones up for practice and then keep them on the truck in case the new ones fail down the road. It's a good to have on board sort of thing.

[NickDawson]

Well, I got the new points, distributor cap and coil (hey, why not?) installed.
I was able turn the engine just enough with the pulleys and gaped the points with a feeler gauge. Not going to lie, felt pretty proud of myself.

but it still won't start

I checked the fuel lines - they are clear and pressurized (IE fuel spurts out when I disconnect them). I thought there might be a blockage in the carb, but when I move the pump mechanism I can see it spraying fuel into the bowl (understanding that my terms may be incorrect).

I had the key on and examined the points, I manually opened them and saw a spark. Glad I had rubber gloves on... so I'm guessing that means there's at least current moving through them.

Any other ideas? now that I'm looking at the old points (and can tell what the "points" actually are) they look almost brand new. Guessing that was never the problem.

____

Since I had the day blocked off to working on the rover, I am going to jump back on the breaks. Just to confirm that I'm not crazy, the lugs to come off counter clockwise, right? I've got a longer 10' section of pipe and going to give them hell with a breaker bar and 1-1/16" socket before giving up and finding someone with an impact wrench.

[Nium]

Timing

Good job! I thought the installed points looked new. Keep them for later.

I got the new points, distributor cap and coil (hey, why not?) installed.

And the rotor button installed too, right? No rotor, no go.

Now you need to statically or stationary set the timing (whichever term you prefer). Remember you threw it off in tinkering. Don't use the timing gun.

Once you get the timing set you are going to have to monkey around with the idle adjustment a bit on the carb to get it to idle long enough to warm up to operating temp. Once at operating temp you can set the idle and forget about it.

Have you replaced that torn apart rubber boot on the vacuum advance of the dizzy that is a BIG vacuum leak that needs to be rectified. If you don't have a replacement use duct tape till you do. That should be a fitting available at the local auto parts store in the vacuum fittings aisle/area.

had the key on and examined the points, I manually opened them and saw a spark

A spark from a spark plug or from the coil right? Not a spark from in between the contacts of the points?


Cheers

[Nium]

Few more things

Make sure the firing order is correct.

With the 1 cylinder set at Top Dead Center (TDC) and the timing mark on the pulley lined up with the timing pointer. The rotor should point to the 1 cylinder firing position of the dizzy cap. The progression of the rotor around the cap should be...

1-3-4-2 (firing order)

It is possible to have the timing mark lined up and the rotor be pointing at # 4 cylinder firing position so make sure # 1 cylinder is at TDC and not # 4.

My method of static timing...

1) ignition off. Remove dizzy cap (leave plug wires connected to cap)
2) disconnect the low tension lead from the points.
3) attach a test light to the low tension led at the points and the other end to the "+" side of the battery (I use the battery cause mines in the engine bay close to the dizzy and I'm assuming yours is)
4) have the # 1 cylinder set so it's just before lining up the timing marks or just a little before TDC on the power stroke
5) the test light should be on
6) rotate the engine by hand till the points just open. The test light will go off when the points just start to open.
7) If the timing mark lines up when the points just start to open. Good to go. If not...
a) loosen the dizzy hold down clamp/device
b) rotate the the dizzy body till the points just start to open with the timing marks lined up.
c)if the timings good clamp down the dizzy.
d) double check by getting #1 set to just before TDC again. Rotate the engine by hand till the timing marks just line up. Watch the test light as the timing marks line up. The test light should go off just as the timing marks line up. If not repeat previous procedure.

8) Reconnect low tension lead to points.

My method varies a little from TerriAnn's ( that I referd you to on a different post) but I like it better because the ignitions off. Either method of stationary timing should work.

[NickDawson]

And the rotor button installed too, right? No rotor, no go.

Now you need to statically or stationary set the timing
A spark from a spark plug or from the coil right? Not a spark from in between the contacts of the points?


Cheers

I did remember the rotor button - although not at first, right before I cranked over the engine, it occurred to me :

The engine isn't even making an attempt to fire. How do I set the timing or the idle if it won't turn over? Its like there's no fuel or spark at all.

I saw a spark b/t the contact points when I manually pulled them apart while the key was in the ignition. How bad is that?

_____
Brakes - the stuck bleeder is stuck no more! My front yard looks like the wheel threw up, but after hours of yanking and tugging the lower cylinder came out and I got the bleeder out with a stripped nut tool in my screw gun. Not guessing I'm going to find that screw locally - think I'll replace both wheel cylinders while I'm at it. The top one had a bit of corrosion under the boot. (it also occured to me to scaveng the bleeder from the new 88" cylinder I ordered...which might have done if it were running.

Still unclear on if they master cylinder I installed will work with the 11" wheels up front - I would think so since its a larger dual and replaced the smaller single that was there.

[Nium]

The engine should be OFF when setting the static timing. Mostly because you're gonna need the dizzy cap off to do it.

I saw a spark b/t the contact points when I manually pulled them apart while the key was in the ignition. How bad is that

Not bad at all. Means there is a connection to ground thru the points for the coil.

I posted my method of static timing just before your last post.

but when I move the pump mechanism I can see it spraying fuel into the bowl (understanding that my terms may be incorrect).

When you depressed the accelerator pump (on the carb) and saw a shot of gas go down the carb I'd take that to mean your getting gas. Concentrate on the spark issue.

Take out #1 spark plug. With it out of the engine set it back in it's wire. With the dizzy all together. Rest the electrode end of the plug against a good ground (clean metal part of the frame or engine) turn the engine over. Did you observe a bright blue spark between the spark plug electrodes? If yes your getting spark. Set the timing. If the timings set and your getting spark and fuel. Pull the choke out to it's max and crank for awhile (about a minute or a little more at a time with a minute or two of rest between attempts).

Setting idle. You aren't gonna be able to set idle till the engine runs.

[NickDawson]

Make sure the firing order is correct.

This is very helpful, thanks! only issue is that I can't turn the engine all the way over by hand.

Going on a mission to find an 1-11/16th socket...

[Nium]

Sure you can, take the plugs out and block a wheel and put it in neutral.