Replacement Axle Housings / Diffs / Drivetrain

[o2batsea]

Still plugging along on this project and want a sanity check - There are two types of diffs on a '66 109", right? Banjo or Salisbury? If it's not one, it's got to be the other--- right???

Second - If paired to an NV4500, does it make most sense to convert to a 3.54 ARB air locker (24 spline) instead of the 4.70? I just want to make sure I've read this whole post correctly.

Thanks all. Pics soon.

You're still evading the driving requirements question. It's too hard to say what's right if you are not forthcoming.
Do yourself a favor and drop the NV4500 notion. I hate to say it's a dumb idea, but there are far better options. I'd rather see you put an NP 4 speed in it than that 4500. First gear on the 4500 is almost useless to you. You'll probably find yourself starting in second gear on the road, and find few instances where you need it off-road.
Salisbury vs Rover diffs. Salisbury axle is stronger because the axle shafts are fatter and the ring gear more robust. Ratio changes are more problematic with them although they can take a regular DANA 60 ring and pinion. The ARB locking diff for them is good, but a Detroit locker in the rear is pretty much bulletproof and requires no external plumbing. If I am not mistaken TAW uses automatic lockers both front and rear and she runs what I would call a heavy truck on them without trouble.
Rover diff you can plunk a 24 spline carrier in and use aftermarket axle shafts but a full set will set you back about a grand. To me that's a lot of money, and they aren't necessarily unbreakable.
The elusive leafer salisbury front. I know of exactly one vehicle in the USA with one. Dan Rao's truck has it and it is impressive. Whether you could ever find one or not, I wouldn't plan around that. It would be easier to have a Dana 60 front axle custom built.
There's one like that on the late Mike VanCuren's monstrosity ( which I had the experience to run around the Cove in at Conclave)

[JimCT]

Salsibury axles

Salisbury axles are not unbreakable! 1st week i shattered one. Get the upgraded axles and drive flanges from great basin rovers. not a problem since, and that is in our ambulance with a detroit locker in the rear

You're still evading the driving requirements question. It's too hard to say what's right if you are not forthcoming.
Do yourself a favor and drop the NV4500 notion. I hate to say it's a dumb idea, but there are far better options. I'd rather see you put an NP 4 speed in it than that 4500. First gear on the 4500 is almost useless to you. You'll probably find yourself starting in second gear on the road, and find few instances where you need it off-road.
Salisbury vs Rover diffs. Salisbury axle is stronger because the axle shafts are fatter and the ring gear more robust. Ratio changes are more problematic with them although they can take a regular DANA 60 ring and pinion. The ARB locking diff for them is good, but a Detroit locker in the rear is pretty much bulletproof and requires no external plumbing. If I am not mistaken TAW uses automatic lockers both front and rear and she runs what I would call a heavy truck on them without trouble.
Rover diff you can plunk a 24 spline carrier in and use aftermarket axle shafts but a full set will set you back about a grand. To me that's a lot of money, and they aren't necessarily unbreakable.
The elusive leafer salisbury front. I know of exactly one vehicle in the USA with one. Dan Rao's truck has it and it is impressive. Whether you could ever find one or not, I wouldn't plan around that. It would be easier to have a Dana 60 front axle custom built.
There's one like that on the late Mike VanCuren's monstrosity ( which I had the experience to run around the Cove in at Conclave)

[o2batsea]

Salisbury axles are not unbreakable! 1st week i shattered one. Get the upgraded axles and drive flanges from great basin rovers. not a problem since, and that is in our ambulance with a detroit locker in the rear

Um well, an ambo will break anything! And I never said that salisbury axles weren't breakable, just stronger.

[PeterK]

Another transmission you might want to consider is the 4500's little brother the NV3550

I built a 109 PU,.

- GM 4.3 V6
- NV3550
- Advance Adapters Tcase adapter
- Series Tcase with Ashcroft high ratio kit
- Salisbury with ARB at 4.70

2000 rpm at 60 mph.

As others have said, your driving needs aren't given but this is a very nice drivable, powerful and economical setup.

Peter Knowles

[nz rover]

Thank you all for the responses, they are very helpful. Let me outline some of my own input to help.

- Usage - It'll be used for trail / basic off-road driving mostly in the Texas Hill country area. (Hills are a relative term in Texas). I do not want to nor intend to rock crawl or do anything insane. I do want more power and an overdrive. Those are the bare requirements - I'm just not sure how to get there (reasonably). Camping, ski trips, and long stretches of road broken up by trails.

- I haven't built a Rover or 4x4, but have built a few hot rods so naturally my inclination is towards a SBC 350. The research I've done to date indicate that an aluminum headed 350 is comparable, if not less, weight than a 2.25L. I want something that I can easily fix on the road (if need be) and few engines rival the 350 in terms of parts availability in the U.S.

- Transmissions - I have just read good things about the NV4500, but understand the first gear is really steep - hence the question about gearing down to 3.54 to mitigate it. The NV3550 I'm not as well-versed on. Back to the books on that.

- 02batsea - that combo you mentioned does sound really cool. I haven't investigated the Rover 3.9 or R380. Is your combo still for sale?

- Overall, I'm in the fortunate position of not being committed to any one choice (5.7L vs 3.9L vs 4.3L) or (NV4500 NV3500 R380). I do figure that if I'm going to have the car torn down and I will be welding, I have a hard time jamming a V6 in it - and to date I'm concerned that the 4.3L is a bit underpowered for the NV4500. (I'll check on the 3550 tonight)

- Hopefully that sheds more light on the build. I would openly welcome any and all feedback. The axles / drivetrain I'm a bit less concerned about (in this thread). I need to figure out the Engine / Trans / T-Case so I can start getting the parts in order. In a nutshell, it sounds like the following are the combos I'm hearing:

Requirements:
* Overdrive
* More power
* Commonly available (minus the Advance Adapters)

Combos:
* SBC 350 - > NV4500 -> Series T-Case (ok, maybe just my idea)
* 3.9L Rover -> R380 -> LT230
* GM 4.3L V6 -> NV3550 -> Series T-Case
* Other proven combos I'm missing that are easily sourced in USA? (2.25L is not an option)

Thanks again everyone - all this information is incredibly helpful.

[PeterK]

Forgot to mention, the 4.3 - 3550 setup doesn't require and body or frame modifications other than motor mounts.
And in retrospect, I think even that could be avoided.

Peter

[nz rover]

Thanks Peter - Sorry I keep saying NV3500 and not 3550. It sounds like that might be a much more compact alternative, and the .78 overdrive is still decent.

[o2batsea]

OK that helps.
From what you describe, you can get away with a very much stock drivetrain with perhaps a mild suspension lift and a bit of performance improvements. You arent towing or loading the truck heavily so you don't need to throw down big dollars for aftermarket gear. Don't forget that a Land Rover Defender is, right out of the box, a very capable off road vehicle. You needn't do a lot of overthinking on this.
Here's the thing. Going with non stock drive train opens up all kinds of engineering issues. You will be reinventing pretty much every system rather than just ordering stock parts. I'm sure that as one who has built cars, you can appreciate how this can bog down the process.
If you are more comfortable with a SBC, you'll find the GM derived Rover V8 very familiar. In combination with the R380 (5 speed, so it does have an overdrive gear on it) and the LT230 (3.something to one low, that can be modified with up to 5:1 low) you have a very wide range of gearing. Depending on tire size you can further tweak that with your diff gearing.
There is an Edelbrock intake and 4 barrel available for the V8 if you are more comfortable with that kind of fueling over injection.
Also there are a couple of performance cams from Crower and Piper, as well as headers so it is possible to get another maybe 30-50 hp out of the lump. You gas mileage will plummet to around 12.
If you want higher mileage, you may want to consider a 200Tdi diesel. They give you almost as much oomph as the V8, but bring all the issues a diesel brings...noise, vibration, smell. However, off road, you set it at idle, put it in low low and just walk over just about anything.
Just as an aside, there is one SBC powered D90 that comes to mind. It was built by the late Mike VanCuren, it has the NV trans and LT230 Tcase. The seatbox and floor and bulkhead had to be seriously altered to the point where there isn't much foot space left. Not saying you would find a better solution, but fitting a non stock engine and trans can bring about some changes that may not be desired.
Anyway, you'll figure it out. Good luck and keep us in the loop.

[toga Rover]

Correct Jason. Sorry. Should have written "and a" instead of a slash.
Did not mean to mislead.

Dave

Just to be clear, that isn't a salisbury front though. Just a regular rover diff with the better 6 cylinder brakes. Decent deal though if you're looking for a salisbury rear.

[I Leak Oil]

Correct Jason. Sorry. Should have written "and a" instead of a slash.
Did not mean to mislead.

Dave

If I had some free cash I'd probably snap these up myself. Been thinking of building my own front Salisbury from a rear, then using the swivels off a stock front. My shop project has me handcuffed for now on spending on extras though. If you still have them in a few months I'll be talking to you then!

[CMorris]

I know of exactly one vehicle in the USA with one. Dan Rao's truck has it and it is impressive. Whether you could ever find one or not, I wouldn't plan around that.[/QUOTE]

Make that two..............I have one on my '63 IIA 109 pickup.......sourced for me by Rovers North.

[TeriAnn]

You guys still at this? It has been a while since I looked at this thread. But finally we have a usage note.

Thank you all for the responses, they are very helpful. Let me outline some of my own input to help.

- Usage - It'll be used for trail / basic off-road driving mostly in the Texas Hill country area. (Hills are a relative term in Texas). I do not want to nor intend to rock crawl or do anything insane. I do want more power and an overdrive. Those are the bare requirements - I'm just not sure how to get there (reasonably). Camping, ski trips, and long stretches of road broken up by trails.

- Transmissions - I have just read good things about the NV4500, but understand the first gear is really steep - hence the question about gearing down to 3.54 to mitigate it. The NV3550 I'm not as well-versed on. Back to the books on that.

A gearbox with a granny first should not be in a drive train that has a transfercase unless you are building a gonzo rock crawler. Which you are not. Best to stay away from any set of gears that include a granny low. You will never use the gear. Consider the granny first to be dead weight.

You should be thinking close range 4 or 5 speed top loader box.

Combos:
* SBC 350 - > NV4500 -> Series T-Case (ok, maybe just my idea)
* 3.9L Rover -> R380 -> LT230
* GM 4.3L V6 -> NV3550 -> Series T-Case
* Other proven combos I'm missing that are easily sourced in USA? (2.25L is not an option)

The Chevy 350 is a very good engine for this kind of transplant. With the aluminum heads it is about 50 lbs heavier than the 2.25L petrol. Use the rams head exhaust manifolds. It is all stock off the shelf parts to the transfercase adapter. This is probably the easiest V8 swap. If the electronics don't scare you there are some folks using the new GM small block V8 engines and getting both power and very good fuel mileage.

The Ford 302/5.0 and 351 are good engines and you can use off the shelf Ford parts on back to the transfercase adapter. A 302/5.0 with aluminum head is about 50 lbs lighter than the 2.25L petrol. The early Bronco folks make engine mounts & oil pan to help this engine work in a LR engine bay.

3.9L Rover & R380 This combo is not as robust as the options above and parts are a lot more expensive. If you get a any of the Rover/Buick V8 engines get a recent rebuild that has top hat cylinder liners. These engines are not known for a long lifetime nor for high fuel mileage.

GM 4.3L. I don't know this engine. But look for something that will be under stressed and put out a lot of torque below 3000 RPM. Most high HP engines put their power out at higher RPMs and rob the low end to feed the high end. If you look at Edelbrock performance specs you should notice that their performance charts do not go below 3000 RPM. That is because a lot of the performance parts perform worse than factory stock at the low end. When I was head hunting the only head I was able to find that worked at the low end was Air Flow Research.

Anyway ... most off road driving is done well below 3000 RPM and V8s tend to get their best fuel mileage loafing around 2500 ish RPMs.

I suggest a small block V8, Ford or Chevy, with either stock or AFR small valve heads, and a truck towing cam. EFI will give you better fuel mileage. Keep compression 9:1 or lower and you can run regular.

Gearbox - NP-435 close ratio (Ford or Chevy) or SM420 close ratio (Chevy engine). Both are very robust 4 speed top loaders from full size pickups & SUVs. Again a granny first is redundant when you have a transfercase and is basically dead weight.

I suggest a stock transfercase, C suffix and newer because they have the more robust intermediate gear shaft & bearings and a Santana clone overdrive from Heystee automotive. This overdrive has been proven to handle 500+ HP.

Diffs & axles - The strongest stock solution are ENV axle assemblies. I think these came on front and rear on SIIA One Ton and also on the forward controls. If memory serves they were manufactured by Eaton. Second strongest Is the Salisbury which is a old style Dana 60 manufactured under contract from Dana. These were stock on the SIII One Ton front & rear. The Salisbury was also stock on the SIII 109. The Salisbury is way stronger than the standard Rover axle but it never hurts to upgrade the Salisbury diff and axles. Your common Salisbury diff upgrades are either an ARB air locker or a Detroit locker (automatic locker). Strengthened axles are available from ROAM Off Road or GBR (formally Great Basin Rovers). GBR can also provide hardened drive flanges and greasable spring bushings.

You will want to convert to power steering to get the steering box out of the way. The current hot set up uses a Range Rover P-38 steering box, pitman arm and lower steering column.

Fifteen or twenty years ago a V8 swap into a Series truck required a lot of custom engineering and custom fabrication. These swaps are common enough with small block Ford & Chevy engines that you can pretty much follow established patterns and end up with a reliable conversion. Advance Adapters has made the conversion almost off the shelf. The hardest part these days is reworking the bulkhead for bellhousing clearance and moving things over to centre the engine in the bay. You want to have good sheet metal welding skills if you intend o do the conversion yourself.