The plot tickens (series III backfire/idle, brakes)

[Nium]

Timing

Good job! I thought the installed points looked new. Keep them for later.

I got the new points, distributor cap and coil (hey, why not?) installed.

And the rotor button installed too, right? No rotor, no go.

Now you need to statically or stationary set the timing (whichever term you prefer). Remember you threw it off in tinkering. Don't use the timing gun.

Once you get the timing set you are going to have to monkey around with the idle adjustment a bit on the carb to get it to idle long enough to warm up to operating temp. Once at operating temp you can set the idle and forget about it.

Have you replaced that torn apart rubber boot on the vacuum advance of the dizzy that is a BIG vacuum leak that needs to be rectified. If you don't have a replacement use duct tape till you do. That should be a fitting available at the local auto parts store in the vacuum fittings aisle/area.

had the key on and examined the points, I manually opened them and saw a spark

A spark from a spark plug or from the coil right? Not a spark from in between the contacts of the points?


Cheers

[NickDawson]

Well, I got the new points, distributor cap and coil (hey, why not?) installed.
I was able turn the engine just enough with the pulleys and gaped the points with a feeler gauge. Not going to lie, felt pretty proud of myself.

but it still won't start

I checked the fuel lines - they are clear and pressurized (IE fuel spurts out when I disconnect them). I thought there might be a blockage in the carb, but when I move the pump mechanism I can see it spraying fuel into the bowl (understanding that my terms may be incorrect).

I had the key on and examined the points, I manually opened them and saw a spark. Glad I had rubber gloves on... so I'm guessing that means there's at least current moving through them.

Any other ideas? now that I'm looking at the old points (and can tell what the "points" actually are) they look almost brand new. Guessing that was never the problem.

____

Since I had the day blocked off to working on the rover, I am going to jump back on the breaks. Just to confirm that I'm not crazy, the lugs to come off counter clockwise, right? I've got a longer 10' section of pipe and going to give them hell with a breaker bar and 1-1/16" socket before giving up and finding someone with an impact wrench.

[Tim Smith]

...I've also go some super fine wood working sand paper - any difference between that and the automotive stuff?

I think the proper stuff is called emery paper but lately I've just been using plumbers sand paper. If you're doing a remodel, then I bet you have some of that laying around.

Regular fine sand paper should also work but sometimes it leaves some of the sand behind. Just make sure there aren't any grains stuck in between the points when you are done and you'll do fine.

You also have new points on the way right? Once you swap them in, you should still clean these ones up for practice and then keep them on the truck in case the new ones fail down the road. It's a good to have on board sort of thing.

[galen216]

What classic car show???

x2

[bmohan55]

What classic car show???

[NickDawson]

Sometimes saving a few bucks on a cheap tool is false economy.

Yeah - I'd agree with that. I have a full craftsman wrench and socket set that I love - just nothing that big. I've had it since I was like 7 so its likely that I've lost the 1-1/16th if I ever had it.

After remodeling our house ourselves (where is the internet forum for that!?!?) we got good at determining good tools from rubbish.

My amazon order was a get-er-done thing, but there is a rumor that Sears is sponsoring the classic car show in town this weekend and will have tools for sale at a large tent. This could get dangerous !

[pisten-bully]

Nick, The lugnuts on my Rover(s) take a 1 1/16" socket. That's a good socket to have when you own a Land Rover.

There's a thread on this forum about OEM versus aftermarket parts, and I think the same sentiments should apply to tools. Sometimes saving a few bucks on a cheap tool is false economy. So where you ordered the socket from Amazon, that's fine except you have to wait for it and it could be poor quality. Sometimes inexpensive tools work great, sometimes they're junk.

My toolbox has some cheap tools in it, but most are the more expensive brand name tools. For sockets and wrenches... my opinion is that you should stop by a Sears store and purchase Craftsman (certainly not the only option, but most people can find a Sears store near them). That way you've got a good tool, and you've got it now.

[SeriesShorty]

I can't really help out with your mechanical problems Nick and these other guys have got you covered, but when it's street sweeping time on my street and my truck is down, I put a big note in my road side window glass that says "broke down sorry, parts on order" and they haven't ticketed me or towed me. Of course, they are used to at least one of my Rovers being broke down at any given time. However, your area may be much tougher so use with caution.

[NickDawson]

Every time I'd ready to give up you guys come back with more advice that I'm dieing to try... just leave me, save yourselves!

Joking aside, I'm coming around to the conclusion that it may not be our weekend ride again anytime soon and I can live with that I guess - but we do have street cleaning coming up so if I can't move it soon, the city may do it for me. To that end, I'm going to take the common theme here and pick a problem - getting it running. Tell me if I'm wrong, but if I had to move it 400 yards to avoid a costly tow, I could at least use a combo of engine breaking and the hand break to bring it to a stop.

Did the brakes go out Nick?

Besides, it's all very easy.

The coil won't send a charge until the points open.

With the keys out of the ignition, pop the top of the distributor and rotor and look at where the lobe is on the points. Make sure the lobe is not at the point where it would be opening the points.

grab your starter handle and insert it into the front crank position, or if you don't have that just grab the belts.

I can't remember the size that the points need to be set at off the top of my head

To adjust the points you will see two small grooves in the body of the points assembly and the base of the distributor. It's just big enough for a medium sized screwdriver to catch both sides. Use that point as a lever to adjust the points as you are opening and closing the points to perfection.


You can't kill the coil by cranking the motor with the distributor cap off. If it was working before all of this, I'd doubt it's broken now. So don't loose too much sleep over that.

Let us know your results.

This is great info - really builds on what I have learned from talking to the guys at RN and the other posts here. Thanks Tim, et al!

Part of the problem is me understanding what the various parts are - I found some diagrams and now think I know what the lobe is (for instance) and the other part is learning how the system works. Its starting to sink in.

I got a set of feeler gauges so in theory I should be good there. I've also go some super fine wood working sand paper - any difference between that and the automotive stuff?

I've tried moving the belts and they just slip, but hopefully the 1-11/16 socket on its way will help me turn the engine. I'm still not exactly clear what I'm looking for but suspect it will become apparent as I get deeper into it - and of course I'll be asking a lot of questions here.

Make sure that break in the insulation, of the low tension lead as seen in pic IMG_0600, isn't grounding out to the dizzy body and that the wire inside isn't broken.

That crude on the spark plug electrodes inside the dizzy cap, IMG-0602, shouldn't be there.

Wow - didn't even see that nick in the insulation - will get right on it, good eye! Again, goes back to learning more about how the system works...I guess that's the benefit of having to do this myself

Thanks again folks, I'll continue to keep everyone posted.

[kevkon]

Well, one can of penetrating oil and blaster and two days later and I still cannot get the lugs off, even with a breaker bar. I think the shop that put the tires on played a cruel joke...

Part of the problem is the crappy lug wrench the came with the truck, it keeps popping off. I checked the auto store and couldnt find one large enough. Going to call RN in the morning and see if they have one...

I'm still calling around to find a local shop but not having much luck. I'd prefer to get it knocked out for a reasonable lump sum rather than me buying tools like an air compressor and impact wrench just to get the lugs off.

Try calling a mobile truck tire service company. Their trucks have compressors and air guns. I'd still concentrate on getting it running before getting into the brakes, though.

[Nium]

Points

I'll work on a better pic tonight, but if it was wired up wrong (I have not changed a thing) why would it have run well for 4 weeks? That site with the animated pics is great - thanks

Sorry Nick, I wasn't sure if you had took the points apart or not. I looked at the other pics of your Rover you've got on flickr.com. The other pic of the dizzy, IMG-0600, made me realize the wire I thought was the low tension lead was just a ground bond wire to the condenser. My bad.

Check that your points are opening it seems like they might not be. They should open 0.014" - 0.016" or as Tim wrote about the thickness of a matchbook cover when the following arm of the points is on the peak of a cam lobe on the dizzy.

I'd doubt the coil is dead. Cranking a few seconds with the cap off shouldn't kill the coil it doesn't have any electronics in it to fry.

To check for spark from the coil.

Turn the ignition on. Have your red friend do his screwdriver thing again , I've done it to check for spark too, and flick the points open with a screwdriver or something similar. You should get a spark. Points are just a simple switch to open and close the connection of the coil to ground.

Your points and condenser look pretty new, by the pics. The points more then likely just need to be adjusted.

Make sure that break in the insulation, of the low tension lead as seen in pic IMG_0600, isn't grounding out to the dizzy body and that the wire inside isn't broken. If it is grounding out. The coil would get really hot by being constantly energized. The coil is suppose to be continually turned on and off by the points really quickly too. Engines run at a few thousand RPM , right?

That crude on the spark plug electrodes inside the dizzy cap, IMG-0602, shouldn't be there. It will inhibit maximum spark from getting to the plugs. Sand it off with a semi-fine or medium grit sand paper. Of course you can compare it to the new cap when you get it.

Glad you liked the auto ignition site I thought the pics might help. If not I felt the animation was neat.

Man I get long winded.

Cheers

[Tim Smith]

Oops. Just saw the part that you have ordered the new ignition parts. Okay. You can skip that part about cleaning your points. Just be sure you adjust the new ones correctly and let us know how it goes.

[greenmeanie]

Thanks Green - the green bible doesn't detail that in the 109 section - is that the standard way to bleed a 109 setup?

The manual does not detail this becuase it is not concerned with design flaws and instead tells you how to deal with the system as originally supplied.

The problem with the 11" set up is that you are trying to bleed air out of the system at the low point which makes it very difficult to purge the upper cylinder. The art of the game is to make the bleed nipple the high point.

The recommendation to reroute the brake lines is just knowledge from running this set up on a 101 for a few years and now on my 109. It is a common trick, cheap and simple to do and makes bleeding the big drums easy.

If you don't feel comfortable making brake lines the other method is just bitter experience but more of a pain because you have to strip the brakes to do it.

[Tim Smith]

Did the brakes go out Nick? I'm asking because I'm sort of skipping ahead in this thread and my first thought is that you should just concentrate on one job at the time. If the brakes still work then I'd say table them (American version ) until you get the motor running. Then come back to them later.

As for going to a shop, sure you can go for that option but I wouldn't advise it. These trucks do like maintenance and the sooner you can pick up the steps the sooner you'll be able to see your way though these troubles. Besides, it's all very easy.

The coil won't send a charge until the points open. Of course if the points are not really closing, or never closing you'll never trigger the coil either. I'm thinking that the pitting on the points could be a problem or maybe you adjusted the points incorrectly so here is my advise.

With the keys out of the ignition, pop the top of the distributor and rotor and look at where the lobe is on the points. Make sure the lobe is not at the point where it would be opening the points. So long as that's not the case and the points are fully closed then take a piece of fine sand paper, fold it in half so the sandy side is on both sides, open the points with a screwdriver and then place the sand paper in between the points. Once you've got it in there, you want try and sand the points clean. You may end up just pulling the sand paper out, reopening the points, replacing the sand paper and then pulling it out again. Keep doing that until you are pretty confident that the points are clean. You may need to use a clean piece of sand paper to see if it comes out dirty. Once you see that it comes out clean, you should be pretty close to having clean points.

Next you want to adjust the points. You will need to turn the motor over a little bit to get the lobe to open the points. To do this you want to make sure the parking brake is on and that the truck is out of gear. Next, grab your starter handle and insert it into the front crank position, or if you don't have that just grab the belts. Turn the engine little by little until you see the lobe is opening the points at pretty much the most open you can get it. This is the position you need to have the engine at to set the points.

I can't remember the size that the points need to be set at off the top of my head right now but you can just use the cover of a matchbook as your gauge. Take that matchbook cover and see if it will slide between the opening of the points. If it does, then does it slip through without any resistance (gap is too big)? If you can't get the matchbook cover in there then the points gap is set too small. Either way you find it, you will need to take a small screwdriver and loosen the set screw. Loosen it just enough so that the points will adjust but not so much that the assembly just goes way loose. This is a bit of a fine art and will just help you make the fine adjustments. If you can't get it right then you'll just need a second screwdriver to adjust/hold the points as you take your measurements with the matchbook cover. To adjust the points you will see two small grooves in the body of the points assembly and the base of the distributor. It's just big enough for a medium sized screwdriver to catch both sides. Use that point as a lever to adjust the points as you are opening and closing the points to perfection. Once you've go that right, keep the points in position while you tighten the set screw back down again. Don't tighten down too hard or you'll strip the set screw. Just make it good and snug.

Bingo you are done setting the points.

Put everything back together and make sure all the wires are connected. Be sure you haven't forgotten the trigger wire going from the distributor to the negative side of the coil. I always bump mine off in this operation and it's always the thing I forget.

You should be good to go now. At this point we can safely say your points are adjusted and that they shouldn't be the point of your problem.

You can't kill the coil by cranking the motor with the distributor cap off. If it was working before all of this, I'd doubt it's broken now. So don't loose too much sleep over that.

Let us know your results.

[NickDawson]

I think you had better determine whether or not you can break free all of the fittings and nuts.

Well, one can of penetrating oil and blaster and two days later and I still cannot get the lugs off, even with a breaker bar. I think the shop that put the tires on played a cruel joke...

Part of the problem is the crappy lug wrench the came with the truck, it keeps popping off. I checked the auto store and couldnt find one large enough. Going to call RN in the morning and see if they have one...

I'm still calling around to find a local shop but not having much luck. I'd prefer to get it knocked out for a reasonable lump sum rather than me buying tools like an air compressor and impact wrench just to get the lugs off.